Expanding at Emperor difficulty (v474.03+)

[player1 fanatic]

When I played this game decade and half ago, I probably played base unpatched version (474.01), and playing at Emperor difficulty wasn't big issue.

But it seems that patched versions (474.03-474.05), added a sort of unhappiness inflation effect. The more cities you have, the lower is threshold for unhappy citizens (something like this exists in Civ2 too). The worse the government, the more intensive is that effect.

This forced me to drop Despotism, when I had over 16+ cities, even though it was great for expansion early on, due to being only government with free shields in Civ1.

Since I started getting double unhappy citizens (red guys) it was too much for Despotism, and I moved to Monarchy. Republic was out of question due to having big Russian neighbor, and having big standing army (due to necessity). And any further expansion was scrapped too (due to much lower shield production).

Currently, unhappy citizens start at population 2. With a few cities at pop. 1.
At least I got Oracle, so those Temples give 4 content guys.

Any tips? How to expand further?
Or should I now focus to develop what I have?
What tech and wonders should I pursue, in order to ease unhappiness.

Do Colosseum pay off, if not in Republic (4 gold, 3 content)?
Or should I just keep cities at the level when they don't need them?


P.S.
My empire currently spawns at two continents. With younger cities being at same mass as Indians and Russians.

 

[Valen]

Red guys are actually a blessing. Add a few luxuries and they go directly from red to bright blue (happy). Can you say "We love the King"?
When you have 16+ cities, the Cure for Cancer starts to look really good. It also puts a red guy in the bright blue column. It costs the same as 15 temples, but there's no upkeep cost and you get 16+ happy citizens (1 per city) for your trouble.
As you keep adding cities, you get more red shirts per city. You can use luxuries and the Cure to convert the red shirts, then the temple - cathedral - colosseum to take care of the rest. A city doesn't need a colosseum until it gets pretty big - probably 14 or 15 if memory serves. 16 or 17 with a little help from Bach.
With trade established and a democratic government, you should be able to maintain WLTKD with 10% luxuries, Bach's Cathedral and the Cure for Cancer.

 

[player1 fanatic]

If only I could go to rep or democracy... Now I'm locked in war with Russians, with lots of casualties on both sides. I even lost some ground and they gained Gunpowder. Knights used on both sides, with me only having small edge with Metallurgy.

Luckily, exempt us two, there are no other super powers on map, so at least I'm holding tech advance. Only puny Indians are there, as partial buffer zone, and also hostile to me.


P.S.
The longer it draws out, the more I think that maybe I shouldn't have expanded on that second continent, and instead should have isolated myself and converted to republic or democracy. Now I have two wary neighbours that drain pretty much all my resources, just to hold what I have there.

 

[Whelkman]

Thumbs up for the Cure, #1 underrated wonder.

 

[ignatius]

Any tips? How to expand further?
Or should I now focus to develop what I have?

Hard to tell w/o a map and more info on the tech situation. Generally, if your expansion stalls, its usually better to stop completely and go buildup, even more so, if you already got happiness problems due to number of cities.

What tech and wonders should I pursue, in order to ease unhappiness.

Bach and Mike are the necessary for any buildup. When you are at war, you might also want Shakespeare. But do not neglect infrastructure: esp. a dense and comprehensive road network is a must-have from the get-go and try to get RailRoad ASAP. About one settler per city for tile improvements is a good rule of thumb.

it was too much for Despotism, and I moved to Monarchy

You never do Monarchy: There's only Depostims or Democracy and nothing else.

Republic was out of question due to having big Russian neighbor

If your are in defense mode, you only need roads, a couple of chariots or knights and maybe some city walls in your most exposed frontier cities. You have no army in the field except maybe some diplomats as scouts (unless in emergencies you don't buy enemy units - buy whole cities instead). Dont forget to build roads on all tiles adjacent to your cities, so that you can move, attack and retract in one turn. You do not want them to close in to attack (or worse, slip in a diplomat).

If you also want to operate offensively, you need to build Shakespeare to use as home town for your expedition force. But in your situation, it looks like you would be better off to delay offense until you have the automobile, anyway.

Now I have two wary neighbours that drain pretty much all my resources, just to hold what I have there.

That's actually a good thing, as with proper defense, the war will be more drain on them than on you - In fact, you want to keep it that way, so never talk to them or else you might get forced to make peace.

Once you manage the transition to democray (best done the moment you finish Bach), and held your first WLTPD-orgy to boost all your cities to size 10 (don't forget to amass enough gold before to pay upkeep for 4 to 5 rounds), you will be awash in ressources. Don't hesitate to keep a high luxrury rate for a while afterwards until you have Mike and cathedrals in all cities. And keep churning out those settlers: In democracy, thanks to WLTPD, natural groth rates are meaningless so max. (not actual) food production and thus the number of irrigated and rail-roaded tiles is the only limiting factor for growth.

ignatius

 

[player1 fanatic]

Thanks for help!
Here is some info on my current situation.

You never do Monarchy: There's only Depostims or Democracy and nothing else.

I wouldn't go to monarchy if it was possible to manage any further expansion (would stick to despotism). And if it was possible to function without large standing army (would go to rep or democracy).

Monarchy helped me to develop what I had (and get a looots of shields with some hill rich cities), and to reduce unhappiness for a 1-2 citizen levels (unhappniess inflation is worst in despotism).

Hard to tell w/o a map and more info on the tech situation. Generally, if your expansion stalls, its usually better to stop completely and go buildup, even more so, if you already got happiness problems due to number of cities.

That's the reason I dropped from Despotism and got to Monarchy. Was able to get 1 settler per city and go some decent irrigation, mining and roadwork that way. In despotism single settler per city ment much slower growth of that city (due to cities having never more then 2 food surplus).

Bach and Mike are the necessary for any buildup. When you are at war, you might also want Shakespeare.

They are indeed great. But I have one issue. My cities depend on Oracle, which gives extra 2 content people with temples. Getting Religion means losing that. Getting Bach means getting back those 2 people, but only on main continent. Still, I do have supply on spare caravans (built before I was forced to increase my war machine) that I could convert to Bach instantly, when I eventually get Religion (still would suck for cities on other continent, though).

But do not neglect infrastructure: esp. a dense and comprehensive road network is a must-have from the get-go and try to get RailRoad ASAP. About one settler per city for tile improvements is a good rule of thumb.

Agreed. In my last King game when I was isolated on single continent, and had no military concerns, railroad tech was my priority no.1.

If your are in defense mode, you only need roads, a couple of chariots or knights and maybe some city walls in your most exposed frontier cities. You have no army in the field except maybe some diplomats as scouts (unless in emergencies you don't buy enemy units - buy whole cities instead). Dont forget to build roads on all tiles adjacent to your cities, so that you can move, attack and retract in one turn. You do not want them to close in to attack (or worse, slip in a diplomat).

Here is the thing. The situation was such, that on one continent were my best cities, only for myself, and multiple weak colonies on other continent, with broad border between myself and two neighbors. It could not be defensible with just local troops in home cities. I needed pretty much to pull all resources from my mainland to be able to defend there (and not lose more tech then just gunpowder). Republic and Democracy were pretty much impossible to use in those conditions (exempt if I would forgo all those cities and isolate only on my mainland).

I not fan of Monarchy in Civ1, but it did its thing at these conditions.

If you also want to operate offensively, you need to build Shakespeare to use as home town for your expedition force. But in your situation, it looks like you would be better off to delay offense until you have the automobile, anyway.

Shakespeare stuff is pretty good idea, if I would be able to switch to rep/dem government.

.

At current point in game, I actually was able to conquer main cities of weak Indian neighbor and push Russians to much smaller border (took a lot of casualties though), as well as make decent road network at that continent. Now there is even possibility that transition to republic or democracy could be possible, if I build fortress at key mountain point, and fortify there. And use Shakespeare and very little from other cities as main army (although it would need a lot of restructuring).

Pushing further on Russians the way it is now could get more difficult (borders would broaden again, making things more difficult). And current tech setup in not suited for conquest (Knights/Cannons vs Musketeers), although it's doable with lots of casualties.

 

[Dack]

This is all very interesting but why not post the MAP & SVE files as you go along.

 

[ignatius]

The longer it draws out, the more I think that maybe I shouldn't have expanded on that second continent, and instead should have isolated myself and converted to republic or democracy. Now I have two wary neighbours that drain pretty much all my resources, just to hold what I have there.

You seem to have a classic case of strategic overextension here.

My cities depend on Oracle, which gives extra 2 content people with temples. Getting Religion means losing that. Getting Bach means getting back those 2 people, but only on main continent.

The two-continent situation makes things indeed much harder and you are probably right - provided your main continent is of decent size - that it would have been better to buildup there and go for democratic conquest later (using Shakespeare, lots of diplomats and piles of money). But this is spilled milk and not too big of an issue overall (iff you can hold your cities that is) as you also hamper the enemy by keeping him in a state of war and already have a bridgehead if you go for conquest later.

Still, you're at a dead-end here and need to get out of it ASAP - you don't fight wars of attrition with the AI on Emperor unless you have a huge production edge and the only way to get it is Democracy. It's not too hard either: Even if you have to temporarily push luxuries to 50% or even 60%, you will still make more gold and science than under Monarchy (you do have roads on all worked plain, grass and desert tiles, have you?) - and this is before any WLTPD-boosting.

The more serious problem you seem to have is that you claim to be unable to defend w/o an army in the field. If this in in fact the case, then it has to be for one of the following reasons:

• you seriously misplaced your cities i.e. you have cities which are further than 4 tiles apart. This means not only that a knight on roads will need more than 1 2/3 mov points and cannot be rehomed (see below), but also that the enemy can get behind your lines w/o you being able to intercept. Nasty to fix as it means having to build filler cities in suboptimal locations - here proper planning can save you a lot of grief.
• failed to build a connecting road-network (so you cannot move your knights anywhere w/o causing unhappiness). In fact, you should never have built an unconnected city in the first place: always first build the road, then build the city. This is also most efficient as it saves settler turns during buildup and speeds up expansion.
• don't have defensive roads in your front cities (so that you cannot defend all city tiles by moving, attacking and retracting in a single turn and thus either have to leave the defending knight outside the city after attacking or expose yourself to pillage and diplo-attacks)

These are the only reasons why defending should ever require you to have mil. units outside of a city on a regular basis. All of these issues can be fixed, though. Everything else is just a matter of careful planning and logistics (and lots of micromanagement).

What indeed you cannot do w/o Shakespeare is fighting the enemy on his own turf, but why should you ever do that unless to conquer? You merely would save him upkeep by reducing his time from production to battle while increasing yours.

A real drawback is that it's much harder to block with defensive units on chokepoints. Without Shakespeare, your mountain-fortress will cause you serious headaches under Democracy (it can still be done by assiging one musketeer to each of your cities on the Bach-continent, as you would have to do with your ships anyway, but it is a pain in the *ss to pull off)

OTOH, once you have enough money, emergency bribes and rush-buying of units can often safe the day.

At current point in game, I actually was able to conquer main cities of weak Indian neighbor and push Russians to much smaller border (took a lot of casualties though), as well as make decent road network at that continent.

Looks good. How did it play out? I assume that you will have solved the crises by now.

 

[ignatius]

One more fundamental issue: Until you have got all of Trade, Religion, Democracy and RailRoad (in that order), you should never research or otherwise acquire anything which isn't a prerequisite for any of the former. The research cost of any new tech is not fixed but increases with the number of techs you already have. So diverting from the direct path, will make all further research for your key-techs more expensive.

I see that you have at least got Monarchy, Horseback Riding, Feudalism and Chivalry. All of those are utterly useless poison techs which do not much more than crippling your path to the real important strategic techs above. The only thing that all 4(!) techs get you is knights, which are not better at attacking than chariots and will rarely get used for defense anyway esp. if you use the defense-by-attacking tactics mentioned above. Also, they are dead-ends which do not enable anything useful latter and should thus be completely avoided as long as possible (the fifth being Pottery for who needs Granaries or cares about famine if he can have WeLoveThePresident days).

Gunpowder is also a poison tech early on - the Musketeer unit is useless to yourself and harmful in the hands of the enemy and it obsoletes your barracks. Of course you will have to research it eventually to get Electronics and Automobile (in that order), but this is much later. The same can be said for Metallurgy given that 1-move attack units are basically a waste of money.

The issue get's worse if you consider that from 1 ad on, all research costs double - so waisting those cheap early picks on poison tech hurts double and puts you back dozens of turns. - Think only if you had gotten RailRoads 5 inventions ago rather then maybe two in the future ...

 

[player1 fanatic]

Looks good. How did it play out? I assume that you will have solved the crises by now.

It seems I have.

I draw them back to mountain tile chokepoint (there are 2 tiles there, but ZOC prevents using enemy movement), where I built fortress. So military reform is now actually possible. Although maybe more in republic then democracy in that case.

Still, even in monarchy, it seems my tech speed in higher then for Russians, so I could even wait out for tanks without doing a thing (not that it would be optimal solution, of course).


P.S.
Those tips on defending on home turf are great. Especially that about front roads. Also good for expanding when already in rep/demo.

Btw, how do you handle sae transport (before industrialization) and sea exploration, without getting too much unhappiness?

.

As for tech choices, the only reason I took Metallurgy was to be able to counter enemy musketeers, since knights just don't cut reliably in taking cities down. I never actually researched Feudalism/Chivalry branch. Part got from tech trade, part seemed good to take when in war, and 2 points of defense got handy from time to time (moving knight to hill/mountain, surviving cavalry strike, etc...).

Pottery was actually useful for me, since WTLK growth only works in rep/dem I couldn't use. Kept cities growing.

 

[ignatius]

I draw them back to mountain tile chokepoint (there are 2 tiles there, but ZOC prevents using enemy movement), where I built fortress. So military reform is now actually possible. Although maybe more in republic then democracy in that case.

Good to hear that. Since you've been in Monarchy for some time now, I assume you already got courts in all remote cities. Also, you will not be able to pull off that fortress-thing w/o either Shakespeare or Woman Suffrage in Democracy (it's a huge difference between having one or two unhappy guys per field-unit). Considering all that and also that you probably have not much experience with early Democracy in a war-situation (where one small error or misjudgement can force you to chose between losing a city and dropping into anarchy) going Republic in your situation makes sense.

The Depotism -> Democracy switch is really something you have to play and plan for more or less from from turn one for maximum effect (which in your case probably would have meant staying on your original continent as you want to do the transition long before 1AD to take advantage of the cheaper research).

Still, even in monarchy, it seems my tech speed in higher then for Russians, so I could even wait out for tanks without doing a thing (not that it would be optimal solution, of course).

Unless you already outnumber and outproduce them at least 3-to-1 (which translates to something like 1:1.5 after the AI bonus), this is not a viable strategy, as with your slow research, they will have Conscription by this time, and then you are up for a protracted high-tech war as your armor will not be able to cut it against their walled cities and getting artillery will take ages. And if your attack gets stalled again, then you will usually not be able to avoid them stealing a tech or two and your already small edge can dwindle dramatically.

What you really want is a Blitzkrieg where you take out two or three key cities (including the capital if they are still on a centralistic governement) and then buy up the rest with diplomats - something which simply cannot be done w/o the trade bonus of a representative government.

Btw, how do you handle sea transport (before industrialization) and sea exploration, without getting too much unhappiness?

Before Shakespeare, you distribute your navy among high-trade costal cities on your Bach-continent. Afterwards, the whole navy and expedition force is homed in the city with the theater (which would have to be a high-production costal city). Land exploration is done exclusively with diplomats. When you are far away from home, you can also use them to buy the occasional Barbarian which will then become a free no-upkeep/no-unhappiness unit.

Transport over longer distances would have to use a chain of ships so that you can transport your units in a single turn. If you have to do this on a regular basis, you really want Shakespeare on your home-continent and a completed RailRoad network to be able to do the rehoming in one turn.

I never actually researched Feudalism/Chivalry branch. Part got from tech trade, part seemed good to take when in war

It's not so bad, when you can get Chivalry outright as it would only set you back one tech instead of four, and yes, their improved defense can come in handy sometimes, but basically only to climb out of holes you never should have gotten yourself into in the first place.

With Pottery, you are correct that it is a must-have unless you are beelining directly to Democacy from the get go.

As for cannons: Those are defensive only as they take way too long to bring into position for attacking (unless you have a direct railroad to the front - but by then, you really should also have armor already). About the only legetimate use for them is to hold newly captured cities which have a road connection to the enemy such that you cannot intercept even a slow hight-defense unit before it gets to the adjacent tile. In this case, being able to reliably destroy the unit before it fortifies is essential and here, slow high-attack units can come in handy. But again, the only way to get into such a situation is when you have to deal with an attack which ran out of steam, which (as you learned the hard way) is a very dangerous situation in civ1 (b/c of the tech stealing) and should never happen unless by accident.

 

[player1 fanatic]

I'm now researching Steam Engine, and plan to go for Railroad, Banking, Industrialization, as soon as possible.

Also, I've started rearranging home city for some of my troops as preparation for future switch to Republic. As a guideline, no city should support more then single unit on field, exempt Sh. Theater city.


P.S.
For Cannons, I mostly used them in setup, when there is some hill/mountain/forest tile near enemy city. In those cases when paired with defensive your there is a slim chance of getting them lost, while pretty good to take out enemy defenders in following turns.

 

[ignatius]

I'm now researching Steam Engine, and plan to go for Railroad, Banking, Industrialization, as soon as possible.

Looks good. What about Religion? Have you already got it? The longer you wait the more you risk that somebody beats you to Bach and Mike. Normally, next stop would then be Hoover Dam, then Cure for Cancer and then Women Suffrage.

Also, I've started rearranging home city for some of my troops as preparation for future switch to Republic.

Since it's only Republic, you might as well switch now and live with one or two rioting cites for a few turns if necessary. Each turn you wait costs you tons of trade.

As a guideline, no city should support more then single unit on field, exempt Sh. Theater city.

For what on earth do you need as many field units such that the theater cannot support all of them? Even with the fortress and including your navy, you cannot possibly need more than 10 in defense mode. Or haven't you built the theater yet?

For Cannons, I mostly used them in setup, when there is some hill/mountain/forest tile near enemy city. In those cases when paired with defensive your there is a slim chance of getting them lost, while pretty good to take out enemy defenders in following turns.

I agree that this is pretty much the canonical way how to use them offensively. I'd call it the Verdun-strategy - static attrition warfare at its worst. When you attack, you want to take the city in a single turn or you do not attack at all. Failing to do so loses the element of surprise and gives the AI a chance to resupply; and the AI is much better - on a shield per shield basis - at churning out defenders (as it pays only half price to boot) than you are at sending along killers, esp. if they are slow and spend many turns in transit.

But let's do the math here (all from memory - which is for the most part 10+ years old so better check yourself): cannon has attack 8 and costs 40, musketeer has def 3 and costs 30. Both will usually be veterans, so this cancels out. The musketeer will usually be fortified, so it's 8 : 4.5 or 64% to 36%. You will destroy 0.64*30 = 19.3 shields on avg., he will destroy 0.36*40 = 14.4 shields. But this is not the whole story: the 19.3 shields you destroy with every attack will cost him only about 10 on Emperor. So here you already are at the (in)famous Verdun equation ("2 dead germans for 3 dead frenchmen") only that it works against you as every attack brings you 1.5-times the losses that you inflict.

And now to the speed issue: Let's assume your cannon has spent 10 turns in transit for 10 shields of upkeep, so a cannon on the front really costs 50 shields, so the enemy kills on avg. 18 of your shields when defending while you do only 10 effective damage. On republic, the unhappiness upkeep costs another 2 luxuries which roughly translates into 2 gold or shields so now he kills about 25.2 resources when defending on avg. and a whooping 32.4 on democracy when after 10 turns, the total upkeep is already higher than the production cost of your cannon.

So economically, the odds in your setup are anywhere between 2:1 and 3:1 against you, so wars of attrition are a losing proposition. What happens when you add city walls to the mix, is left as an exercise to the reader ... ;-)

So basically, attacking - esp. when done far from home - is really, really expensive, so you need to minimize your time in transit and esp. the number of units you have to kill in the first place. The first is addressed by always building a road or railroad right to the enemy before you fire your first shot - in fact the road should be ready before most of your attacking army has even left the assembly line.

The second is addressed by amassing enough troops to reliably be able to kill off 4 defenders in one turn and still being able to take the city afterwards. When you have your, say 7 chariots in place, you get into attack positions preferably 2 tiles from the city so that you can move 1 tile on road and attack. Next turn, you attack with each chariot once (if possible from different directions), which should hopefully take out all good defensive units. If necessary, your survivors then attack again (with 2/3 strenght) to take out the odd phalanx, attack unit, diplomats and what else he has in there. Then you take the city. If sucessful, the AI will neither get a chance to counterattack nor to rush-buy defenders or city walls.

 

[player1 fanatic]

Here is end game save. Won in 1857AD by conquest. Includes replay file too.


P.S.
Perfectionist AIs can sometimes be really dumb. Germans, after French defeat, got whole continent for themselves in 2640BC, and never built a single new city.

 

[ignatius]

Congrats on your victory. As having read you first posts, I also decided after many years to do a civ1 game (coincidently also with the Greeks; replay is included).

My starting continent happend to be rather on the small side and only supported 6 sub 20 cities - but I had it for myself so I didn't have to conquer an AI first. I beelined to Democracy and went democratic 1840 b.c., although looking back, Republic would probably have been a better choice, as the continent was very small and I didn't do much further expansion after that. Also, the Shakespeare trick wouldn't have worked in my game as I had Electronics long before Medicine.

Anyway, even with only 6 cities, by 1 a.d., I had Industrialization and was researching Electricity and overtook the Americans as the biggest civ. Then I came the dark ages where I founded three additional cities on a small neighboring island and I did no wonders and only one discovery until 1000 a.d. These endless medieval consolidation periods together with a lack of exploration and expansion (I did have transports, after all, so Democracy is no excuse) are probably the weakest part of my game - almost a whole millennium stalled with only 3 cities to show for it. And all this, while the Germans and 3 Zulu cities cities were there for the taking sitting on small islands right in my backyard.

This allowed the Americans and the Romans to catch up technology wise (both went Republic for considerable times) and by the time I finally got the automobile, they already had conscription and ironclads so the window of opportunity for a quick push-over was closing. Not in the mood for a protracted high-tech war, I finally decided to forgo all further expansion at all and launched the spaceship in 1750 a.d.

ignatius