Free Vets

[dalgo]

If you capture a European colony that has a University, fill it with the Free Colonists, Indentured Servants, Converted Natives etc. You probably captured a few of these with the colony. Then remove all specialists from the colony and add a Veteran Soldier of your own. You can use a few more untrained colonists to work the fields but make sure the only specialist in the colony is your soldier.

When your students graduate there is only one specialty available - and it is free. With a University the first batch of vets will be ready in only a few turns so fill it up again with more students.

This also works with a College or a Schoolhouse, and can also be used to train statesmen or preachers etc - but only use one specialist per colony.

 

[M07]

Nice discovery ! This bug can be solved when we must first choose the profession before start the teaching.

 

[Raliuven]

Is there somewhere that explains the 'graduation' rates - or for that matter, the live with the natives durations?

I get that each successive 'student' takes long to train, but I don't understand how these values are calculated (and thus I cannot predict the outcome, particularly with the natives).

I know that building better schools is a short term solution - just like building better churchs helps with the immigration problem short term. But it seems there are some connections I am missing.

Basic Questions:
How are the durations calculated for each successive student?
Are they calculated by colony/city (Observation is no)
Are they calculated by tribe (Observation is yes)


Observation 1

I had tribe A that was teaching me farming and fishing. Tribe B knew only fishing. Tribe C knew only fur trapping.

I never had any problem generating the handful of fur trappers I needed from Tribe C throughout the game. Tribe A was closer than tribe B so I used them for early training but soon the training times were becoming noticibly slower. I moved to tribe B for fishing, and presto, new fisherman no problem.

That appears to me that tribes matter to the calculation time. I can't tell about the cities within the tribe, as both the fishermen and farmers for Tribe A seemed to slow at the same time - but I also trained about the same number, so not sure.

Observation 2

I had a university up and running in city A. Training times were getting long so I thought I would open another university to make up it up in volume. I build a school and saw that a free colonist would take 80+ turns to train! I decided to stop building. I didn't want to build a second useless university or damage the productivity that was already in place.

Question

What am I missing or am I completely off base here?

Thanks in advance for any info!

 

[M07]

There are many mistakes of conception.
It is only a very basic eduction system. More you learn in a tribe more you will spend of time in this tribe, the same system for school.
In my mod, I did an other system (more realist for me), when you make a school you will be only able to learn basic professions(like fishermen).
At every turn, the trained time will be the same even if you make a college or an university. However, college will allow other professions like carpenters...

 

[dalgo]

Observation 2

I had a university up and running in city A. Training times were getting long so I thought I would open another university to make up it up in volume. I build a school and saw that a free colonist would take 80+ turns to train! I decided to stop building. I didn't want to build a second useless university or damage the productivity that was already in place.

Are you using the patch? In the original game the education system was seriously flawed but this was fixed by the patch. I build a schoolhouse in every colony and a college/university in most and have a steady stream of trained professionals graduating throughout the game. In one game I trained over 100 veteran soldiers alone.

 

[Raliuven]

Hmmm. Didn't know there was patch. I'll check that right quick. Thanks for the info!!

I did build a second university and it seems like between the two that each new colonist takes 2-4 turns additional time to train. So I have one colonist added for 34 turns to graduate, and the next is 37 turns.

I'll check for a patch and see if that helps. I figure it is probably something I have to learn to live with, even if it drives me crazy - like corruption in Civ3.

 

[clearbeard]

Are you using the patch? In the original game the education system was seriously flawed but this was fixed by the patch. I build a schoolhouse in every colony and a college/university in most and have a steady stream of trained professionals graduating throughout the game. In one game I trained over 100 veteran soldiers alone.

So to clarify, the graduation time increase is determined separately for each city/settlement, not globally throughout your empire/colony?

How is the cash cost on graduation calculated? For soldiers, for instance, it seems to hover somewhere around 500 gold (still cheap compared to Europe, but more than the 'pedia leads one to believe, i.e. free), but varies between about 450 and 666, for no reason I can discern.

And do garrison troops/colonists count as being "present" or only people in the city, i.e. consuming food?

Several poorly documented features in this game (on my first playthrough, so perhaps I just don't have the hang of it), but this one baffles me more than most.

P.S. Why can't I arm my friendly converted natives? Their friends back in the villages can learn to use guns!

 

[dalgo]

Yes the graduation time is calculated individually for each colony. The cost varies depending how long the teacher has been in a colony. In the case of training vets I make sure I have a veteran soldier working in the colony even before I complete the school, and keep him there as long as I have colonists in training. He has to be inside the colony, not on garrison duties. The cost is usually fixed at 500 gold but for some reason it drops a little below that on occasions.

It does seem strange that you cannot arm a native convert yet you can train him to be a veteran soldier.

 

[Raliuven]

But natives with guns are not as good as soldiers. So at best you would receive a sub-standard unit, even with guns. At any rate, the converted natives are better used for gathering raw resources, train your free colonists. I rarely ever train my converted natives. They can receive increased movement; I use them to gather resources and later turn them into pioneers. I usually only set up a few missions, usually with criminals and indentured servents, though - or the free jesuits if I pick up Thomas Hooker.

Regarding education - as far as I can tell, it is calculated per colony, but also by native population. So the university is by colony. But each native group you use to train with has it's own calculator. So if it takes a while with a nearby native population, try the next closest one for a few quickly trained colonists. Eventually the distance traveled to the new native settlement is quicker than training with the nearby natives - and once you have used their training and drained them of money, your just going to use them for cannon fodder to train your military anyway.

 

[clearbeard]

But natives with guns are not as good as soldiers. So at best you would receive a sub-standard unit, even with guns. At any rate, the converted natives are better used for gathering raw resources, train your free colonists. I rarely ever train my converted natives. They can receive increased movement; I use them to gather resources and later turn them into pioneers. I usually only set up a few missions, usually with criminals and indentured servents, though - or the free jesuits if I pick up Thomas Hooker.

Regarding education - as far as I can tell, it is calculated per colony, but also by native population. So the university is by colony. But each native group you use to train with has it's own calculator. So if it takes a while with a nearby native population, try the next closest one for a few quickly trained colonists. Eventually the distance traveled to the new native settlement is quicker than training with the nearby natives - and once you have used their training and drained them of money, your just going to use them for cannon fodder to train your military anyway.

Unless, of course, you have Chief Powhatan on your side, giving all your natives +50% strength. Dragoons with the equivalent of veteran 5 right out of the gate (and the ability to gain promotions on top of that) would slaughter anything the king could throw at you. Even without being able to use guns, my converted natives, with Powhatan and the right to bear arms generally do garrison duty as colonists (strength 3, +50%, 25% fortify bonus + tile or city defensive bonuses).

 

[dalgo]

Unless, of course, you have Chief Powhatan on your side, giving all your natives +50% strength. Dragoons with the equivalent of veteran 5 right out of the gate (and the ability to gain promotions on top of that) would slaughter anything the king could throw at you. Even without being able to use guns, my converted natives, with Powhatan and the right to bear arms generally do garrison duty as colonists (strength 3, +50%, 25% fortify bonus + tile or city defensive bonuses).

Are you able to stack them up? Normally a stack of colonists only put up one defender. Once that is beaten the rest surrender. They would still do a lot of damage singly though. Fortify them on forest or hill tiles to slow down the REF and maybe take out a few along the way.

 

[Raliuven]

Unless, of course, you have Chief Powhatan on your side, giving all your natives +50% strength. Dragoons with the equivalent of veteran 5 right out of the gate (and the ability to gain promotions on top of that) would slaughter anything the king could throw at you. Even without being able to use guns, my converted natives, with Powhatan and the right to bear arms generally do garrison duty as colonists (strength 3, +50%, 25% fortify bonus + tile or city defensive bonuses).

I'm not sure I understand your logic here? A strenght of 3 is equal to a solider, which the king's dragoons will walk over without much trouble, possibly without even the support of warships or artillery. Of course, a 'free' solider by placing a native on the board is a descent perk - would the FF bonuses apply to that - give free promotions as rangers, mountaineers, swamp fox, etc.? Interesting thought.

Natives can't be made into soldiers or dragoons, I thought. I guess I would need to check that, but I thought you couldn't arm them period. And if you train them as a colonist or vetern, don't they lose their native status altogether? They can't be both, right? It would be neat if they could.

 

[clearbeard]

I'm not sure I understand your logic here? A strenght of 3 is equal to a solider, which the king's dragoons will walk over without much trouble, possibly without even the support of warships or artillery. Of course, a 'free' solider by placing a native on the board is a descent perk - would the FF bonuses apply to that - give free promotions as rangers, mountaineers, swamp fox, etc.? Interesting thought.

Natives can't be made into soldiers or dragoons, I thought. I guess I would need to check that, but I thought you couldn't arm them period. And if you train them as a colonist or vetern, don't they lose their native status altogether? They can't be both, right? It would be neat if they could.

Natives cannot be made into soldiers. My explanation is mostly describing why it would be imbalanced if they could. Still, a strength 3 native colonist fortified on a forested hill, for a total bonus of +150% on defense is a major roadblock for the king's dragoons. If they manage to not die and gain experience, they can take any promotion open to melee units, too, making them even more troublesome. Even fortified in a city whose defenses have been reduced to rubble they make good defenders of last resort, potentially protecting more valuable wounded units. Mostly I like them for rear area garrison and every forested hill in the nation to protect cities and terrain from dragoons raiding away from their siege train.

 

[Raliuven]

I see what you are saying. I agree with what you are saying, but I've had more than a few disappointments when I thought that fortified soldier with a fortress would stop a cavalry charge of dragoons unsupported by artillery. The AI must not care that the first few are generally doomed. I've even had a stack run through 3 soldiers I thought were well fortified. I suppose if they have enough grenadier promotions it doesn't matter.

On the other hand, I've had 5 cannons hiding under 2 soliders forfied on a hill pounding the king's units to heck and back and they won't attack them. Not sure how to resolve this. Thinking from the Civ3 persepective - if the odds are low, the AI will not attack - unless it is to take a city?