[BTS] G-Minor 277 - Ramesses, Prince, Religious - Deadline May 27th 2024

[Noble Zarkon]

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While the general Hall of Fame is an ongoing competition, we like to run time-definite competitions between updates that we call Gauntlets. Standard Hall of Fame rules still apply, but any games meeting the settings will be counted towards the Gauntlet.

Settings:

Settings:

• Victory Condition: Religious (though all victory conditions must be enabled)
• Difficulty: Prince
• Starting Era: Ancient
• Map Size: Standard
• Speed: Normal
• Map Type: Pangaea
• Required: No Tribal Villages, No Random Events
• Civ: Egypt (Ramesses II)
• Opponents: Must include America (Lincoln), England (Churchill), France (De Gaulle), Holy Roman Empire (Charlemange), Japan (Tokugawa), Ottoman (Mehmed II)
• Version: 3.19.005
• Date: 1st to 27th May 2024

Must not play as Inca.
The earliest finish date wins, with score as a tiebreaker.

 

[Lcpl Jack Jones]

Hi, as expected I'm giving this a go and keen to submit a good score but am having trouble (a lot of trouble) getting other civs to vote for me. I can get 4 civs up to "pleased" yet either they abstain or their collective votes don't meet the 75% needed. Any suggestions welcome.

 

[Lcpl Jack Jones]

Ok guys, here’s where I’m at; -

my diplomatic/religious skills are non-existent hence I’m using this game [BTS] - Religious Victory Case Study (Monarch/Tiny/Normal) | CivFanatics Forums as a template but the plan is flawed. Experience shows the suggested tech path: - mining>mysticism>polytheism>priesthood etc. deprives other Civs a chance to gain their own religion, Charlemange founds Buddhism and I end up with Hinduism, Judaism & Christianity. Therefore, when spreading the AP Religion it becomes the dominant faith, which in turn results in the unwanted high voting numbers.

After checking out the current HoF lead game I’m going to wait for both Buddhism and Hinduism to be founded before researching polytheism by researching masonry (and possibly bronze working) after mysticism allowing the AI time to do the deed!

Also, my missionaries should choose their target cities more wisely; i.e. found Mr T’s ‘gift city’ (keep it at pop 1 until liberated) next the two civs with a holy city, spread to their smallest city then simultaneously spread to the remaining 3 civs and give the ‘gift city’ to Tokugawa the turn before the Diplomatic Victory vote is held. Well, that’s the theory; let’s see if I can get a positive result.

 

[Lcpl Jack Jones]

I guess the best way to show my ‘shortcomings’ is to post a game, so without further ado here goes: -

I ask Map Finder to save the tried ‘n’ trusted double gold starts then choose one with enough food to continue to grow after working the goldmines and a bounty of forests to chop. I’m also going ‘worker first’ (stealing is too much of a gamble), grow to size 2 then 2nd Worker. Tech order as stated in the previous post: - mining>mysticism>masonry>BW>polytheism etc.

Please note this is a real-time game which if successful will get submitted, so what you see is what you get!

 

[Lcpl Jack Jones]

It’s turn 59 and I’m finally ready to start building The Apostolic Palace; I’ve pre‑chopped 9 forests and 6 turns form discovering mathematics, with 2 workers I calculate completion on turn 72.

My frustration continues though, Elizabeth is the founder of Hinduism and won’t open borders with Christian me … but the real issue is London’s a ‘choke point’ to the two remaining civs; one of which is Buddhist Charlemange. I’m going to convert and hope I can continue to build a Christian AP otherwise its curtains on this game too.

 

[Lcpl Jack Jones]

Well, what do I know? And only turn 70!

I stayed with Christianity, but now I’ll covert to ‘No State Religion’ and pray Betty & Charlie will open borders. Thinking outside the box … I wonder whether I’m able to gift cities to distant empires? Could actually be quicker: there are still uncut forests available.

 

[Lcpl Jack Jones]

Right, this is where I really need the help …

Yet they abstain?

Why? And even if I had everybody on board I'd still be short,

 

[Lcpl Jack Jones]

It's now 1AD and I've had enough; I've given all my techs & gold away trying to buy votes to no avail ... back to the drawing board.

 

[antimony]

Only civs that are friendly or your vassals will vote for your victory.

On the victory condition screen, you need to click diplomatic victory on the bottom right instead of apostolic palace resident.

 

[Lcpl Jack Jones]

Ok, I'll bite. How do I get them up to friendly?

 

[antimony]

This thread is really useful for understanding diplomatic parameters of each AI:

Civ Illustrated #1 (Know Your Enemy)

Click on the leader link below to view their strategy article :king: Alexander Asoka Augustus Caesar Bismarck Boudica Brennus Catherine Charlemagne Churchill Cyrus Darius De Gaulle Elizabeth Frederick Gandhi Genghis Khan Gilgamesh Hammurabi Hannibal Hatshepsut Huayna Capac...

forums.civfanatics.com

Besides the basic like "years of peace... " , "open borders", the fastest ways to boost diplo include:
- lopsided trades in their favor ("our trade relations have been fair..."): maxes at +4 for all AI, just give them techs for nothing or much cheaper techs. giving cities also influences this.
- giving cities can give a separate bonus from the +4 above, but only if you "liberate" them: +1 for 1 city, +3 for 2 cities. "liberate" shows on the trade screen. these would be cities that are close enough to the AI that they are influenced by their culture.
- shared religion: max bonus depends on leader, see the link above. it takes a bit of time to grow.
- shared civic: requires *both* you and the AI leader to run their favorite civic. so in practice works best with leaders with easy to get civics like hereditary rule (monarchy) or organized religion (monotheism). also grows slowly with time.

 

[Lcpl Jack Jones]

I’ve tried a few more times but always with the same result. So you could say at the moment I’m clueless in what to do; diplomacy is an utter enigma. There must be rules which I am not privy too; Aargh, I haven’t even got a starting point to build from … someone help me PLEASE!

I taken a bit of a timeout trying to find a pointer of how to improve my diplomacy move forward… and still searching but there is a chink of light. In the linked Case Study Game above Swordnboard gives a clue while selecting opponents then again later when calculating dilplo modifiers with his chosen friend Zara; it seems that it all boils down to numbers. He talks about ‘innate base modifier’ (at a guess translates to starting attitude), e.g. Mr T’s ‑1: may explain some way why he hates everybody! Also, Swordnboard states +8 = friendly; if true, I now have a start and finish line!

Finally (for today anyway), I’ve been getting ‘-1 (or at times -2) first impression is a lasting impression’ modifier, I’m going to try gifting 5 or 10 gold at first contact and see if this negative disappears or better still turns positive.

 

[Lcpl Jack Jones]

@ antimony

Cheers, only just seen your post. will read and apply to tomorrows effort.

 

[antimony]

Great. Fyi the 'first impression' never goes away. It is somewhat random from game to game but some leaders are inherently friendlier (that's the innate modifier). Zara usually starts at +2 first impression, which is why he's a good target, only needs 8 more for friendly. Maybe that's what Swordnboard meant by +8 instead of +10.

 

[Lcpl Jack Jones]

I couldn’t make this up; 10 minutes after posting on Wednesday the internet goes down for 24hrs but hopefully all is well now. The ‘Know Your Enemy’ article should prove to be very helpful once I’ve mastered how to use it, so let’s see if I’m interpreting it right.



Base Attitude is how the AI initially feels about me: -

De Gaulle, Mehmed II & Tokugawa are negative (-1)

Charlemagne & Churchill both neutral (0)

Lincoln positive (+1)

Peace Weight is how the AI see each other: -

Our group can be equally divided; Lincoln (+9), Churchill (+6) & Charlemagne (+6) on one hand with Mehmed II (+2), Tokugawa (+1), De Gaulle (0) on the other.



And from this information I must choose my allies? But wait, before I do there is one major factor that needs addressed … RELIGION; it is a Religious Victory after all!

Charlemagne will found Buddhism so unless I convert his attitude will fall to -4 taking him 3 points below Mehmed . Although he won’t align with the 'bad boys’, he won’t support me either. Lastly looking at Lincoln there’s 3 points difference in his Peace Weight to Churchill & Charlemagne which may be enough to cause friction.

Strangely enough what initially seemed an easy decision may actually be the wrong one! Especially if De Gaulle, Mehmed II & Tokugawa share my religion their attitude shifts dramatically in my favour, open borders add another point or two, so after a few gifts and maybe a religious war their collective vote should seal the deal.

 

[Lcpl Jack Jones]

The good news is I'm getting my chosen allies up to friendly and gaining their vote but as yet collectively still below the 75%.

Also the first impression modifier: -

Finally (for today anyway), I’ve been getting ‘-1 (or at times -2) first impression is a lasting impression’ modifier, I’m going to try gifting 5 or 10 gold at first contact and see if this negative disappears or better still turns positive.

can't be bought off before currency is unlocked ... I'm not sure but it only seems to appears if I'm ranked lower than the civ on first contact; in this case 'worker first' may not be the best choice.

 

[antimony]

No, first impression modifier is base attitude + a random factor. It's locked in at the start of the game and you cannot do anything to change it.

Also it's prince level with Egypt, so you could get maps with cows/pigs and reroll until you have horses then conquer with war chariots. You are not allowed to have 75 percent by yourself but can always take cities from enemies and give them to your friends.

 

[Lcpl Jack Jones]

@ antimony
I'm had the impression modifier in all my games so far, so i have resorted to drastic measures and deleted all Map Finder saves in case its seeded from the initial game.

 

[Lcpl Jack Jones]

*** FINALLY ***​