G-Minor CII

Peets

Emperor
Hall of Fame Staff
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While the general Hall of Fame is an ongoing competition, we like to run time-definite competitions between updates that we call Gauntlets. Standard Hall of Fame rules (*) still apply, but any games meeting the settings will be counted towards the Gauntlet.

(*) Please read the >> HOF rules << BEFORE playing!

Settings:
  • Expansion: Brave New World
  • Victory Condition: Domination (though all victory conditions must be enabled)
  • Difficulty: Warlord
  • Map Size: Standard
  • Map Type: Large Islands
  • Speed: Standard
  • Leader: Shoshone (Pocatello)
  • Required: One City Challenge
  • Opponents: Any
  • Version: SV8
  • Date: 1st to 16th June 2015
The earliest finish date wins, with score as a tiebreaker.
 
Another Shoshone OCC game?
 
Another Shoshone OCC game?

A favorite of Manpanzee's. I am guessing Peets is going through his suggestions. This should be over pretty fast. But yes it is weird to do 2 Shoshone OCCs back to back. Can you clean the map with Pathfinders? I guess yes you can, pity they do not promote into naval units:D
 
A favorite of Manpanzee's. I am guessing Peets is going through his suggestions. This should be over pretty fast. But yes it is weird to do 2 Shoshone OCCs back to back. Can you clean the map with Pathfinders? I guess yes you can, pity they do not promote into naval units:D

Don't think I have anything to do with this. Someone else's suggestion... Interesting similarities of settings in both the G-Major and G-Minor here vs last month. I think I like the idea.
 
Sigh. I love the Shoshone "Great Expanse" ability. Can I ever get to use it on more than a capital in a gauntlet someday[emoji4] ? Restricting a civ's unique ability with settings makes for some sad Native Americans...
 
What happens to a trireme if you use it to capture a city in OCC?
 
What happens to a trireme if you use it to capture a city in OCC?

Ran a quick test. The trireme did a weird animation where it rose in the air. Landed on the old city spot. Could not be moved or even chosen afterward. It was beached!

NiceOneEmlyn has a lot of experience in OCC naval games and he would know. I think he mentioned the behavior is not always 100% consistent. I think when he plays it can be moved afterward most of the time.

EDIT: The more I think about it, the more I think Peets may just have made a cut-paste error on this pre-open post. When is the last time we had the same civ back to back, let alone OCC back to back?

EDIT2: I guess this is how it's rolling!
 
Sigh. I love the Shoshone "Great Expanse" ability. Can I ever get to use it on more than a capital in a gauntlet someday[emoji4] ? Restricting a civ's unique ability with settings makes for some sad Native Americans...
Perhaps the OCC setting is the Civ5 equivalent of a reservation?
 
NiceOneEmlyn has a lot of experience in OCC naval games and he would know. I think he mentioned the behavior is not always 100% consistent. I think when he plays it can be moved afterward most of the time.

My Caravels and Privateers have a mind of their own.

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This is the second "bug" I have found when playing One City Challenge Ocean maps.

1 - I bombard the City down to no health and take care to take out all ranged unit defenders in the vicinity.

2 - I capture a City with caravel/privateer.

3 - The vessel that captured the City appears to be sitting on the City ruins, and remains there until my next turn.

4 - The truth is very different, whilst my enemies and barbs are having their turn, my vessel is actually floating in the Ocean somewhere unbeknown to me.

5 - When my next turn comes around and assuming I have survived (often not), my next move is from this Ocean spot which might be no where near the coastal point from which I captured the City.

6 - I have lost many ships in this manner and it is damned annoying because my City attack armada has been depleted and it can take an awful lot of turns to send a replacement.

These are some of the predicaments I have found myself in when finally locating it's whereabouts.

1 - On the opposite side of a long streaky island, now it has to run the gauntlet of any enemy shipping that might be positioned along the route back to the fleet.

2 - In the middle of an enemy fleet, and the only reason I know that It was ever there is because of the puff graphic that we see when we loose a unit.

3 - Back in my own Capital City.

4 - The funniest one ever, I was put into a single hex lake contained within the borders of the City I had just razed!

I hope this helps guys, I sent this to the bug section some months ago!

Oh! and nice one Mesix, I am still chuckling to myself!!
 
G Minor CII Pregame Walkthrough

I tried to keep this walkthrough short and sweet, like the gauntlet game will hopefully be.
A very quick discussion of the settings (not many choices) and then I will rough outline the three "pure" approaches and talk about the general strategies for them. This gauntlet is a bit out of the ordinary, so it's wide open for people to come up with their own strategies and wrinkles to basic approaches. Please feel free to chime in with your own ideas and takes


Settings:
  • Don't forget this is a One City Challenge!

  • Unfortunately, you cannot choose the sea level with Large Islands :(. The best you can do to lessen rough terrain impeding your ground forces while on land is choosing 5 Billion years and Arid, which will reduce mountains and vegetation. Some people might rather have 3 or 4 billion year old Earth to have more hills for more capital production so it is not necessarily a clear cut choice. Remember though, that more hills means more chances that AIcapitals are on hills and tougher to take. 5 billion and arid seems like the best bet to me.

  • Opponents should be civs who are NOT big sea powers (you don't want to get bogged down by ship-infested waters) who will send out as many early cargo ships as possible for you to plunder. Gold focus good. Naval focus bad. Venice is a conundrum-- will definitely have trade routes, but may build multiple triremes too. I am going to include them at first because they will build cargo ships first usually :). My initial list is Morocco Songhai Inca Arabia Portugal Poland Venice. All high gold, not upper level naval except for Venice. Bleidraner and others like to include Spain always, on the chance they will find an early Natural Wonder and have mucho gold to extort. I have never found that jackpot, though, and don't want their annoying scouts in my pathfinders' way ;)

  • Promotion Saving should always be on. Raging Barbarians is more hindrance than help by far in this one. This is OCC and you will not be able to heal your ships unless in your cap or by XP instaheal. Every barbarian ship and archer on the map may reduce your units' strength semi-permanently.

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The following approaches are the "pure" forms-- most people will probably use some combination of them based on their own instincts and ingenuity! Keep in mind that all these approaches will be limited by OCC because you soon reach a unit limit which curtails production on units in your capital. Buying units becomes hugely important, and thus demanding tributes from CSes and possibly making some early peace deal money grabbing with AI civs are also hugely important. Don't forget to exact tributes whenever possible!!

Approach 1: The Swimming Pool

The idea here is that your main conquering force will be land units. They will get from Large Island to Large Island by swimming there after you research Optics. Obviously, you have to hope you can get to every AI via swimming with this approach. If any civ is reachable only by crossing ocean tiles, you are doomed to wait until teching Astronomy.

Tech order: usually Archery, beeline to Optics, then either to better land unit techs or start working toward Compass (galleass) and Astronomy in case the whole land unit swim thing doesn't pan out :). Shoshone pathfinders can upgrade to Composite Bowmen through ruins, so it might be worth a shot to beeline Optics first send out 3-4 pathfinders to hopefully find enough ruins to all upgrade eventually.

Build Order: Crank out pathfinders until archery, then archers and then build enough triremes to take cities (as the melee unit), plunder trade routes, and fight enemy ships. Take into account NiceOneEmlyn's invaluable post above for ideas on how many you will need! A monument possibly if you feel a strong need for tilespread or SPs. Possibly a worker if you simply can't steal one, buy one, or get one from Liberty and need one for upgrading terrain. Remotely, a lighthouse if you have lots of sea resources. Wonders don't help you much with this approach; units alone do.

Social policies: Totally up in the air. Honor is always good for conquest. Liberty will get a free worker and help production (No free Settler though with OCC) and eventually get you a Great Admiral, Great Engineer for a wonder or Great Scientist to rush a tech if you complete it. If you tech far enough to choose the Exploration opener, that is a must grab for extra naval movement and vision.

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Approach 2: Galleass rush

The idea here is that you build some pathfinders and triremes to scout, plunder, and eventually take cities once galleasses are bought/built. Build wonders to help get to Galleasses and then buy as many as you can after teching Compass. Then build more of them until you win. Galleasses main disadvantages are that they need Compass to get built, are slow without Great Lighthouse and Exploration opener, and must follow coastlines-- but they will bring the hammer down quickly on AI civs when they get there and the map sweep should be swift if you get 2 fleets moving ASAP.

Tech order: Either beeline Optics to get your triremes and pathfinders scouting fast and maybe Great Lighthouse going, then Writing for Great Library, and then to Compass.... OR beeline Writing to get Great library ASAP to help slingshot toward Compass ASAP...... OR Pottery-> Sailing (for trireme building)->Writing (to start GL)-> Calendar/Optics etc.

Build Order: Pathfinders, triremes, GLibrary/GLighthouse (maybe even an Oracle to finish Liberty sooner) and then Galleasses. Monument to help speed Liberty is a possibility.

Social policies: Liberty until it is finished (this is OCC so choose the Free Settler last) Get Great Scientist and bulb something on the way to Compass or Compass itself. Then Exploration Opener.

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Approach 3: Trireme rush

Vadalaz and others got this to work on a Chieftain Dom Gauntlet using Carthage that has pimped-up version of triremes. The idea is you don't wait so long for Galleasses. You take capitals with masses of brute force naval melee units. AI capitals with only 1 sea tile adjacent are big obstacles in this though. This being Warlord level and the Shoshone having only generic triremes means this approach may not work so well. OCC means these triremes will probably never heal except for XP instaheals, and as NiceOne Emlyn pointed out, the trireme that takes the city may easily get lost. All those negatives being said, I will probably first try this approach in hybrid approach with swimming upgraded pathfinders hopefully. Masses of triremes can get tribute from CSes easily. Great Lighthouse, Honor, and Exploration Opener help a lot.

Tech order: Beeline to Optics. After that, anything goes, but it is probably best to either tech to archery/composite bows or continue on Galleass path just in case.

Build Order: Pathfinders, triremes, GLighthouse at some point. Monument to speed Honor at some point possibly.

Social policies: Honor helps this a lot. Honor is great for melee units, and triremes are melee units. Exploration Opener when you can get it is big too.

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Ok, those are the rough outlines of 3 pure-form approaches to try. Most players will probably end up using some combination thereof.

This is low level; it is OCC, so not too many choices to make as far as cities go. It is domination, which is clean, pure, and simple conquest. Have fun with it!

Good luck to all.
 
First experimental try makes me think a galleass rush is the way to go, trying to take a cap or two with your initial pathfinder(s) upgraded and triremes to speed things up.

Why? Map seems big with narrow shallow-water-connection chokepoints that slow down swimmers. Large Islands map seems to show in my small sample of 1 game that AI caps tend to not have many adjacent coastal tiles for melee ships to pound away from. I'm at T63 with 1 cap down, 1 tough to take cap on deck and others pretty far away. Went Honor and did not rush Writing, so there's no real hope of salvaging a galleass rush in any decent time. Back to the drawing board :hmm:. Just wanted to get some discussion going, so I'll probably leave this one for awhile.
 
Trireme rush only works as Carthage I think. Quinqueremes are very good on lower difficulties for CS tributes, and the additional strength really helps vs cities. But even quinqueremes struggle vs hill cities with 1 coastal tile.

Multiple lux (salt...) + granary resources start into a Galleass rush is the way to go here I think. Might wanna keep one ruin untouched on your island til turn 20, then grab a pantheon, God-King or perhaps even the +% to wonder production, as you'll want to build GL, GLH, NC, maybe Oracle, maybe SoZ.
 
Played a few test games and finally settled on an attempt with just archers->comp bows. Ideally augmented by some hut upgrades.
In the end I got maybe 3-4 upgraded pathfinders, but these were far flung so spent a lot of turns either getting back with a war band or just waiting for the band to catch up to them at some capital.
I had some ideas to do certain things like GL->Construction, but ended up not doing any of that. Mostly just spent a lot of time moving my bows to the next city with triemes ready to capture.
Didn't lose any triemes from the city capture buggy behavior, but one got placed in a dead end ice zone so I had to disband it. Built plenty so this didn't slow me down.

My tech related tests seem to put a galleass rush a bit further out at this low level but if you could get Compass sub 100 I think it could be effective. Its unlikely you'll be able to get any GLighthouse speed boost unless you build it yourself or a lucky configuration with the AI. (see below)


I trialled a trieme rush game but this attempt with was just a laughable failure, they are so much suck. I almost managed to take a 8 Def expo city, with 4 of them. I had 3 spaces to attack from (the capital only had one), I ended up losing one when the AI rush bought an archer. I had the SoZ and the melee bonus from Honor, which still only amounted to a strength of 13.
I think this might be possible with some city promotions but with OCC this is just an impossibility because you need those for healing.
Its possible you can do this in combination with Pathfinders which are pretty strong, but triemes seem to be high priority targets so the entire force could be crippled IBT.
In a composite sort of attack I think this might be a good first capture force, ideally come in with a couple triemes which you'd build anyway for scouting. A couple upgraded pathfinders. Possible to destroy first cap before turn 30 or so. Although this detracts from early scouting.

Anyway the overall map terrain had little effect as most of the time a sea access was quicker than any land routes. I ran with regular barbs, but may be tempted to try raging so as to reduce the chance of the AI settling second cities which ended up just being a PITA either blocking early approach, or preventing a clean escape to the next cap (or signing peace and spending a few extra turns going around).
It appears with large islands barb sea power is much reduced as there is a lot of land and many camps will be inland.


I selected this map due to the 3 wheats and my desire to stop rolling and just play. So there is lots of improvement there for early production and science generation. I went with Sun god, early built granary so I had some good growth and got to comp bows pretty early (but some time was wasted on unneeded/unused techs). Tribute and gold savings paid for the first 4 bow army. Built the next 2, which were augmented by the upgraded pathfinders.
Lots of room for improvement with placement as well, I was at the bottom of the world. A more central location could probably shave dozens of turns just from movement alone. Also less huts in nearby radius. My original goal was to get my first force out just from hut upgrades. Probably an optimal path if doable.


Note: An interesting thing, you get the bonuses from wonders prior to the destruction of a city, for that turn. Probably of not much use with the exception of the great lighthouse and possibly other instantly applied but permanent effects.
All my active units did receive the +1 movement for the rest of the game. Any built after that turn however will not. Since I had the bulk of my force built when I had this happen, this gave me a nice boost to naval speed rest of the game. Very limited effect as the delay was the mere 2 movement of embarked units.
 
Multiple lux (salt...) + granary resources start into a Galleass rush is the way to go here I think. Might wanna keep one ruin untouched on your island til turn 20, then grab a pantheon, God-King or perhaps even the +% to wonder production, as you'll want to build GL, GLH, NC, maybe Oracle, maybe SoZ.

When I get a chance to play another I'm going to try this approach more fully. I don't think I could get Compass by turn 80 as in last months diety challenge. Also, with only 3 movement and large islands, embarked units with a more straight line path may be quicker. I suppose its possible to GL->Theology or even Compass. And certainly Philosophy, so theres that. Would shave a bunch of turns off research.

Other downside to this is there isn't as much money available to buy the galleass, once Compass is reached. Hopefully one of the science pros can give us a benchmark for Compass with these settings and then I can try to get close to it. :)

Anyway SoZ is of little effect with that approach, and Oracle seems of limited use, what would you want to build it for?
The only policies I got that had any effect overall was the Liberty worker. With this approach opening Exploration would be useful however, but worth an Oracle build? Would have to time it. And sacrifice building NC or GLH as you'll likely have to build a bunch of galleass.
 
When I get a chance to play another I'm going to try this approach more fully. I don't think I could get Compass by turn 80 as in last months diety challenge. Also, with only 3 movement and large islands, embarked units with a more straight line path may be quicker. I suppose its possible to GL->Theology or even Compass. And certainly Philosophy, so theres that. Would shave a bunch of turns off research.

Other downside to this is there isn't as much money available to buy the galleass, once Compass is reached. Hopefully one of the science pros can give us a benchmark for Compass with these settings and then I can try to get close to it. :)

Anyway SoZ is of little effect with that approach, and Oracle seems of limited use, what would you want to build it for?
The only policies I got that had any effect overall was the Liberty worker. With this approach opening Exploration would be useful however, but worth an Oracle build? Would have to time it. And sacrifice building NC or GLH as you'll likely have to build a bunch of galleass.
The build order I like for the Galleass approach on low difficulties is something like this:

Monument - Granary - Trireme x4 or so - GL - NC - GLH - Oracle

Send triremes in pairs to demand tribute, GL Philo and get quick NC, finish Liberty and Oracle on the turn you research Theology, choose Exploration opener as your free policy and use the Liberty GS to bulb Compass. Should be a t70-75ish I think? If you get some good peace deals you should be able to rush-buy at least 2 Galleasses by that time, sometimes 3-4, depending on tributes and trade route pillaging.
 
T105 first run, using that exact build order + an extra pathfinder. Oracle to finish Liberty for T72 Compass, Exploration T75 or so. Rush-bought 4 Galleasses immediately + 2 or 3 later, and hard built two more. No trade route pillages, just peace deals and CS tributes. Got a bit unlucky in the end with kamikaze triremes, they were surviving with 1hp instead of dying, would've saved me at least 1 turn if it worked properly.

Don't really see how to improve this approach other than by rolling a better map, so I think this will be my only submission for the gauntlet.

Maybe I'll give the swimming pool approach a try though, except I'd probably go for Optics first instead of Archery, gotta get those CB upgrades and triremes for tributes/exploration/city capture asap.
 

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T105 first run, using that exact build order + an extra pathfinder. Oracle to finish Liberty for T72 Compass, Exploration T75 or so. Rush-bought 4 Galleasses immediately + 2 or 3 later, and hard built two more. No trade route pillages, just peace deals and CS tributes. Got a bit unlucky in the end with kamikaze triremes, they were surviving with 1hp instead of dying, would've saved me at least 1 turn if it worked properly.

Yes, the kamikaze triremes, they are damned annoying! I came across these months ago and figured the only way to get round it was to promote my Galleasses with sea attack promotions. This is a compromise when playing normal but OCC it would seem to be the way to go!
Very well done vadalaz, some of your finish times are beyond comprehension, I would go as far as to say that you are the vexing (vanilla) of the BNW world!!

EDIT - I have never been able to look at a thumbnail or any other sample for that matter, maybe I need to start doing some yoga!
 
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