"Ganging-up" and AI Unfairness

[Bravo17]

I don't know about other Civ players, but I don’t consider myself “victorious” or “winning” at the game until I have accomplished BOTH of the two, foremost objectives: (1) being the first to reach Alpha-Centauri, and (2) taking over the entire globe (i.e., complete annihilation of all other civs).

Whatever points I amass enroute to achieving 1 and 2 above, I consider as icing on the cake.

Given that, I must confess, I have never been able to achieve much beyond the level of Prince (with 7 civilizations). I have found that at this level, the other civs seem to be more aggressive, and draw up alliances or “pacts” to “halt the expansion” of my civilization—regardless of what my prior relationships were, or what (unexpired) Wonders I may possess at the time. What inevitably happens is, my civ gets the hell pounded out of it from every front, from every other civ, until another civ surpasses me and is the first to launch a spacecraft.

I find this to be an extremely frustrating (and perhaps a bit unfair) part of the game. I would like to know what others have done to counteract this (i.e., “ganging-up”), while still achieving the two objectives I mentioned above.

Cheers!

 

[allan]

I LIKE those alliances against me--because it often gives me a good excuse to attack more than one civ at a time, over and over:

Say I'm the Japanese, and the Chinese and Vikings have a pact "to contain my aggression". The Chinese sneak attack, I attack back and the Vikings activate their alliance and declare war on me. I take one Chinese city with a few of my frontline forces, and the Chinese sue for peace (and as a democracy my senate takes the offer); but the Vikings are still at war, so I switch to the Viking front--and as soon as I attack them, the Chinese reactivate their alliance and declare war again! I take one Viking city, Vikings sue for peace and my senate accepts. But since China is back at war with me, I use some more of my forces and take another city (note that it is still the same turn as when this all started)--and guess what happened when I attacked the Chinese again? War with Vikes, so I can take another of their cities. Keep going back and forth like that, and soon the senate (even without the UN) will go along with you when you reject enemy peace offers--because the other countries keep breaking these peace treaties! Your reputation is still spotless btw, if that means anything to you (personally, it is a goal of mine to keep it that way), and yet you can fight a good offensive war this way, by manipulating AI treaties like that!

I just started in king a couple months ago, and am up to 5-civ competition on that level (I played prince with seven, but when I started playing king I dropped to 3 civs to ease my way into that level--I recommend you do the same with prince if you're having trouble with 7 civs). Use your tactical advantage as a human player--the AI ain't very good with tactics, so they compensate with numbers. But with good creative tactics on the field numbers don't matter all that much.

As for accelerating your science (to keep AIs from besting you there--this gets harder the higher level you go, btw), read all those threads in here about trade. Trade (both arrows produced per city, AND caravan/freight delivery) is key to science--something I didn't really know myself until I started reading in this forum....

 

[allan]

Don't worry--soon you will realize that the AI isn't really unfair, it is actually unfair for the AI to have to play a human with a human mind! Ever notice, for instance, that the AI can't even figure out where to build the best, most productive cities? I.e. they'll often "miss" specials (whales, silk, coal, etc.) when they build--because their programming isn't that sophisticated (it could be better...), whereas you as a human can make your own decisions, therefore the best ones....

Same with battle tactics--the AI often "wastes" units on trying to attack very well-defended positions, whereas you as a human would never do that--you'd concentrate forces on weak points instead.

So the "advantages" the AI gets on higher levels are really there to compensate for inherent AI limitations on intelligent playing....

 

[Bravo17]

I have also noticed many stupidities of the AI, and believe me, I take advantage of each and every one of them! In fact, I sometimes find these weaknesses to be quite annoying. I would much rather see the Firaxis people create a much more intelligent AI—one that doesn’t do so many stupid things, and challenges me more from a strategic perspective as I progress up through the various levels of play, instead of using speed (in the passage of time) and aggressiveness (of the civs) as a means of accomplishing this.

In regards to conducting warfare, you have an interesting strategy. Unlike your strategy, however, I usually focus on fighting with one civ at a time (usually the one that's the closest to me in tech. advancements and size)—grinding them down as quickly as I can, taking their cities one by one. Once I have accomplished that, I go on to the next civ, then the next, and so on, until the civs are either completely annihilated, or reduced to nothing more than a small, meek “province.” I then go on to discover the Apollo Space Mission and building my spacecraft.

But this whole “ganging-up” thing really ticks me off, and I’m not really sure what I’m doing wrong that creates this condition. The only things I can think of are that I am not always accommodating when it comes to trading techs. (I don’t want the other civs to get too powerful!), I am almost never agreeable to giving them gold and/or techs. when they demand them, and oftentimes I neglect to create embassies within their countries. The only other thing I can think of, is that I’ll frequently break the treaty with the civ that I am currently warring with, in order to continue with this “grinding-down” process.


BTW--the reason why I don't like taking on too many civs at once, is that when I do this, I find I get spread too thin and have to defend too many "fronts" (sorta like what happened to the Nazis during WWII). However, your strategy is interesting. I'll give it a try.

 

[allan]

Well, it's not really a strategy I contemplate doing every game--it's more of an incidental thing. I.e. when two (or more) civs decide to ally against "my aggression" (which is usually nonexistant before their sneak attacks), that is simply one way I can take advantage of it.

Normally, however, I do what you do--focus on one civ, and grind them down to submission. But if another civ wants to jump in against me at the same time, I'll give them the same treatment at the same time. I don't need a particularly large military to do this, btw--just a few well-placed offensive units, and a first-class transportation network. Money and spies also help. (Spies are also good at circumventing enemy zones of control, too--just move them one space at a time, and move your offensive forces into the square they occupy, then move the spy another space, and repeat; keep doing that to get around enemy units that exert ZOC. Spies don't observe ZOC, and other units can ignore ZOC IF they are moving into a square occupied by a friendly unit--in this case the spy. This is one of those techniques the AI doesn't "think" of.... )

BTW, my "weak" period tends to be early and mid game--whereas I'm pretty strong (even with fewer actual units) in late game, because there is so much more variety of uses among late game units. I particularly like using carriers with stealth fighters and helicopters, howitzers, marines and paratroopers.... The AI isn't all that good exploiting all the advantages of such units....

 

[rafisher]

I agree with you in finding certain AI stupidies/bugs extremely
frustrating. I just quit a game because my 3 pet peeves
came up so frequently:

1. rival military units that can bribe my units. It's impossible
to have a defense around a city unless I stack every
unit.
2. rival civilizations able to build space ships before
discovering flight or other prerequisite technologies
(by stealing space flight from me). This is just so
illogical it is extremely annoying.
3. wayword caravans and freight that seem to get
stuck when I use the "Go to" option. I've had
many caravans/freight wasted when they go off
in random directions right into enemy units.

I think Civ II is an excellent strategy game and I would
like to see these bugs fixed (rather than try another
game, such as Civ III).

 

[Achinz]

Originally posted by rafisher
1. rival military units that can bribe my units. It's impossible
to have a defense around a city unless I stack every
unit.

If your technological development permits, get a Spy (more if possible). I usually get them with their high mobility and "tele-vision" to scout around my city for lurking enemy spy units. Having one inside your city can neutralize enemy spying units although this is only randomly successful. Even a Diplomat is better than none.

2. rival civilizations able to build space ships before
discovering flight or other prerequisite technologies
(by stealing space flight from me). This is just so
illogical it is extremely annoying.

Same strategy as above on having own spies to minimize this.

3. wayword caravans and freight that seem to get
stuck when I use the "Go to" option. I've had
many caravans/freight wasted when they go off
in random directions right into enemy units.

This is why I seldom use the "go to" option, always safer to use the arrow keys.

 

[greenie]

The AI "gangs up"on you because it is supremely jealous of your size and power, the size of your military normally. That's why they sign the treaties to contain your agression, whether you've said boo all game or not.

There are no real ways to counter this, except for playing OCC (I throughly recommend, its great fun) or to deliberately keep your number of power of units down during the game. The AI will be much more friendly to you if it perceives you not to be a threat. :crazyeyes

Ways you can minimse your power is to include many weak units in your military, like diplomats, spies, transports, caravan/freights, and so on. However, with many cities, and my usual 2 best defenders per city, it is often hard to keep my power rating down, and civs often gang up against me just because i happen to have an incredible defensive strength!

 

[Bravo17]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Achinz posted:

"If your technological development permits, get a Spy (more if possible). I usually get them with their high mobility and "tele-vision" to scout around my city for lurking enemy spy units. Having one inside your city can neutralize enemy spying units although this is only randomly successful. Even a Diplomat is better than none. "
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I just finished playing a game where this happened (if I'm understanding what you're talking about). I was way ahead of the other civs in my tech. development, when along comes a spy from a rival civ and tries to steal a tech. from one of my cities. I just happened to have a spy unit stationed in that city. The rival's attempt was thwarted because of this.

This is the first time I've ever seen this happen! But, this may be because I usually keep my spies in one central city on each continent, so that when I need to use them, I know where they're at. If this "thwarting" takes place often enough, it may be a good ideal to station a spy unit in each of your outer cities during the later stages of the game.


BTW--Your use of a spy unit to "scout" the enemies territory is similar to what I do with my fighter units (i.e., using them for reconnaissance). I wish the Civ people had created a special plane that has reconnaissance features---that is, the ability to stay airborne for extended periods of time, while being able to view large areas of the map as it moves. (Perhaps someone has created a custom unit that does this??)

 

[duke o' york]

Well why don't you alter the units file so that the helicopter is able to see as far as you want. It doesn't have to return to base all the time, but can't just keep flying forever, which is quite realistic, even if it is a useless unit otherwise.

 

[Bravo17]

I would much rather modify the helicopter unit to carry marines so I can fight a Vietnam-style combat. But I have tried that and apparently Civ2 won't allow a flight unit to carry anything. I guess you can only do this with naval units.

 

[ferenginar]

Wayward caravans - I hate it when the goto doesn't work, but even when it does there are still problems. I find quite often ( before railroads) that by the time the caravan arrives at the detination city, the commodity is no longer required and needs to be sent on somewhere else. Why is this?

bravo17- that idea about helicopters would be great, are you sure there is no way to get it to work/

ferenginar

 

[Sorivar]

Except for some minor pacts, it is useless to attempt to ally with any computer civ. On Deity level (my favorite) they all hate you before they have ever met you. I will tolerate no rival on my primary land mass and I go all out to destroy any computer civ on "my" territory.

I may then be friendly with other, more isolated computer civs. They invariably attack me first, even if they are hopelessly outmatched.

I then ruthlessly exterminate them.

 

[Achinz]

Originally posted by Bravo17
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
BTW--Your use of a spy unit to "scout" the enemies territory is similar to what I do with my fighter units (i.e., using them for reconnaissance). I wish the Civ people had created a special plane that has reconnaissance features---that is, the ability to stay airborne for extended periods of time, while being able to view large areas of the map as it moves. (Perhaps someone has created a custom unit that does this??)

Yes, when I get Advanced Flight or even Flight, I do the same reconnaisance.

Regarding the second suggestion of a special longranged airborne reconnasance unit, in several mods this has been done - it's usually a Zeppelin type of implementation which has say about 6 moves per turn and you have to land in one of your cities after 3 or so turns! Of course if you felt strongly enough you could modify Rules.txt to add this unit yourself!

 

[shotdown08]

"ganging up" happens when a the AI deems you a threat to them. The AI does this to level the playing field. Your not doing anything wrong except for the fact that your being successful.

 

[Nishdog]

Originally posted by rafisher
3. wayword caravans and freight that seem to get
stuck when I use the "Go to" option. I've had
many caravans/freight wasted when they go off
in random directions right into enemy units.

Here's an explanation for why this happens (and it doesn't just happen to caravans/freights, it happens to all ground and naval units...i'm not sure if air units are affected by this):

There is an imaginary line on the map (think of it as an international date line) across which units cannot cross using the "Goto" command. If you ask a unit to Goto somewhere that crosses this line, it may try to go there by going the oppisite direction as you want (going all the way around the world west-ward, when you really only want it to go 6 squares east-ward).
Or the unit may just get stuck going back-and-forth between 2 squares. I think this happens when the AI can't figure out how to plan a route to get where you want it. Have you ever noticed foreign caravans doing this in your territory when it can't plan a route to the desired city...it'll just go back and forth for awhile, then end its turn automatically).

The key to fixing these problems is PAYING ATTENTION. If you notice a certain "Goto" route takes a unit off the right course, then activate the unit and change the goto command to an intermediary destination where the unit can safely go (like another one of your cities between your location and your destination). If this still makes for a bad course, then just move your units manually. I know it's a pain in the butt, but it'll get the job done.
______________

On another note, somebody mentioned that it was annoying when you send a caravan to a city, and the city no longer needs the resource. There are a few ways to combat this
1. Build roads (and railroads when available)...the quicker you get your caravan to the destination, the better your chance of meeting demand
2. If sending the caravan to a foreign city, don't send it on a goto mission to the city, send it to a square next to the city. Then go through the trade advisor screen and use the supply and demand feature to see if the city still needs your resource.

 

[jomey]

3. wayword caravans and freight that seem to get stuck when I use the "Go to" option. I've had
many caravans/freight wasted when they go off
in random directions right into enemy units.

My understanding was the the AI would always try to take the shortest route possible and if you don't have a road built along this line then it will still try to take this route. I remember reading somewhere that if a road is built along this line then the trade bonus that you receive is greater than if the caravan had to travel across not roaded routes. I guess that one of the more experiences players would be able to put us staright on this point but they all seem to be far too busy playing civ3 to even think about these columns anymore.