Gauntlet Three

[BlueRenner]

Bit of a n00b question here, but I honestly cannot figure out when it is ever a mathematically sound idea to use a Great Artist as a specialist, as opposed to having him generate a Great Work.

On marathon speed, the Artist Specialist makes +12 culture/turn, but the Great Work produces +12000. It would take 1000 turns without multiplers for a this specialist to exceed the culture his work produces.

Now, for this gauntlet a Marathon game should have a target of 600 turns (1200AD). Lets be generous and assume the specialist is in a +300% culture city due to cathedrals and the Hermitage and whatnot, and that this bonus is in effect for 150 turns. Furthermore, lets assume that this specialist was doing his normal +12/turn for 300 turns prior. Very generous. So...

((12 * 4) * 150) + (12 * 300) = 10800 culture

Which is still less than the great work, nevermind losing the flexibility of moving him around. And yet I hear stories of people using the Great Artists as specialists... I just don't see it.

What am I missing here? Am I missing anything?

- Bill

 

[walkerjks]

What am I missing here? Am I missing anything?

You are correct that the very early win date tends to push the cutoff date for use as a specialist much farther forward. But you are missing a couple factors:

1) With Sistine Chapel, you get an extra +2 culture/turn with the super specialist.

2) The non-cultural benefits matter. +3 science/turn under Representation is helpful (of course this benefit becomes useless after 750 AD or so - whenever you stop researching). The +3 gold/turn is worth more than +3 culture/turn. Assuming you don't have a positive income at 100% culture at the end of the game, every extra gold you have is worth approximately 4 total culture in your culture.

So perhaps a reasonable calculation of value is something like:

1000 AD and on: 14 * 4 culture + 3 * 4 "culture equivalent" from gold = 68/turn
750 AD to 1000 AD: 14 * 3 culture + 3 * 3 = 51/turn
500 AD to 750 AD: 14 * 2 culture + 3 * 2 + 3 from science = 37/turn
Before 500 AD: 14 culture + 3 gold + 3 science = 20/turn

That puts the cutoff around 1 AD. Look like I've been using them as super specialists a little too late myself (I've been cutting off at around 250 AD).

 

[DaveMcW]

The Artist also makes 3 gold. Multiply that by 150 turns, then by +300% because it allows you to turn more commerce into culture, and that's +1800 more.

The he also gives 3 beakers with Representation...

And finally there is the border expansion benefit, especially in a border city.

(doh! too slow)

 

[Mad Dog]

The trouble is, for a really good attempt, you'll stop researching somewhere around 250AD, which makes the extra 3 science pretty useless. Plus, you are trying to maximise culture, so why trade it off for other things unless those other things are great?

I had one more attempt at this gauntlet, and managed to somehow use the oracle to research philosphy; I got to liberalism before 300AD. It was looking good for sub 1300 finish until Asoka shockingly decided to invade (I'd been less generous with my tech than in earlier games, looks like I got a little complacent).

 

[BlueRenner]

Hmmm.

Yes, its a bit more of a complex problem, there. The Tech argument doesn't speak to me... tech has never been a problem in this gauntlet. However, the Gold argument is very intriguing.

In my next game I'll invest my early artists and see what happens.

- Bill

 

[Gazaridis]

I just haven't been able to finish teching before 600AD in this gauntlet, I have no idea about how you guys finished by 300.

 

[walkerjks]

I just haven't been able to finish teching before 600AD in this gauntlet, I have no idea about how you guys finished by 300.

Only one person has actually stated that they stop tech that early. I haven't stopped tech before 540 AD in any of my games. I suspect that BlueRenner is optimizing tech much better than I am, and I am doing something else better than he is (city placement? managing cathedral building better?).

 

[DaveMcW]

I would guess BlueRenner is emphasizing artists (and their +4 science) earlier. The drawback to that is you can't rush-buy with artists when research is over.

 

[mdbill]

I use at least one super artist in my +400% city. (Hermitage + 4 Cathedrals.)
That's 14 culture times 5 = 70.

For only 200 turns, that is 14,000. Plus all the tech and cash benefits.

Regarding ending research early...
I also researched well past 300AD that game (500 AD I think) and I didn't even get Printing Press.

 

[mdbill]

I just checked my latest game that is going very well, (except no marble).
I got Liberalism on 220 AD. I went for the old CS-slingshot (Civil service from the oracle. Then run Bureaucracy)

I expect to finish this one around 1150AD.
We'll see...best laid plans...

 

[Mad Dog]

My final attempt landed in 1334 AD (balanced, marathon). A bit disappointing as the start stop was good, but I did miss out on the Oracle, and made a few minor mistakes.

The tech path I usually go for is bronze->pottery->meditation->masonry->alphabet->drama->liberalism, trading for everything else not on that path. I skip developing farms etc (cities need towns not farms and mines for this) so there's not much need for agriculture and animal husbandry until the lack of health bonuses starts to hit you when your cities hit size 3 or so. This gives enough time to research alphabet, just.

In one game I managed to use the Oracle to slingshot philosophy and ended up getting liberalism around 250AD.

 

[BlueRenner]

Alright, I pulled an 1140AD game.

I'm not at all sold on the whole "Great Arists Super Specialists" thing. In this game, I used two of my artists (out of 14) as specialists, and while I guess they did their job for awhile, at the end of the game I was begging for another Great Work. I could have finished 13 turns earlier with another artist out... I can't escape the nagging sensation that I shot myself in the foot there... though I haven't run the figures.

The Oracle -> Philosophy trick is my personal favorite, though very risky. In this game, I lost the Oracle to Mansa and had to go back and research it the mundane way. Life is sometimes very hard.

And yes, in my games I stop teching at or around 250AD. 220AD, in this game. I think what saves me a lot of time is that I don't go for Nationalism. I view the Hermitage as an extemely overpriced toy that is best ignored.

----

Aright, I picked through the game log and found out how much the first Great Artist Specialist made me. It came out to a total of 10024 Culture, +819 Gold, +135 Beakers. It looks like it came out pretty much even, with slight advantage to the specialist due to the gold.

- Bill

 

[walkerjks]

I'm not at all sold on the whole "Great Arists Super Specialists" thing. In this game, I used two of my artists (out of 14) as specialists, and while I guess they did their job for awhile, at the end of the game I was begging for another Great Work. I could have finished 13 turns earlier with another artist out... I can't escape the nagging sensation that I shot myself in the foot there... though I haven't run the figures.

Yeah, sometimes you just need 1 more great work to make the numbers balance, but there's no good way to predict this very far in advance. Use them to maximize culture as best you can and then start running the numbers 100 turns out to tweak the cities so you don't find yourself 12K culture short in one of your cities.

Congrats on the date.

 

[Big_Ben]

Yes, amazing date, congratulations. I am still having trouble getting below 1300 and I don't know why. This guantlet is truly one to show who the better players are. I know I am following all of the basics just as well as any of you guys but I just can't figure out how to maximize the little things. I am still trying though.

Anyway, I thought about something that hasn't really been mentioned yet. Opponents need to be non-spiritual and non-industrious, working with mao, catherine, and frederick now. I have thought about settling only 3 cities. Placing them all in prime food locations, atleast 2 good food sources, preferably 3. Tech goes bronze-masonry(chop pyramids)-poly(chop parthenon)-pottery-priesthood(oracle)-writing-code of laws(oracle)-philosophy and stopping there. When you cities get to 8-10 pop convert to caste system and pump out some great artists. You can tech alphabet-drama-music while working on great artists.

The benefits of this are that you can stop teching before 0 AD and start getting Great Artists sooner. I had 4 by 0 AD. This strat focuses on GA instead of generating you own culture. You found confuscianism and taoism for sure. You will get hinduism either by founding it or getting it spread to you. Religions aren't really that important since you won't be going for cathedrals but the culture from temples and monasteries helps.

I have only tried this twice. Got beat to Oracle once and was declared war on the second time at 100 AD. I think this has potential. Having only 3 cities helps with expenses when going to 100% culture. Also, having 3 amazing GL generators is nice as well. All together you get 100 or so turns of extra GL generation, so all together that could be an extra 5-6 GA or so, maybe more. If you use the Oracle for philosophy you could gain enough turns for 1-2 more GAs but you risk losing it.

I am thinking that you can top out around 20 GA this way. Not sure what kind of culture you will be generating in the end so I don't know if those extra GAs will be enough. If I play this successfully I will let you know.

 

[Big_Ben]

Forgot to mention, you can play this successfully with Lizzie or Mao. Lizzie is good if you have 2 cities on the coast to benefit from the extra gold while working coastal tiles, Mao gets the reduced civic cost and that helps out a lot when you aren't using any cottages.

 

[walkerjks]

I'm not sure an all-out great artist strategy will work. It's something I used for an 1116 AD win (don't panic - it's on settler). You can get +6 culture/turn from a great artist, which is very comparable to a village or town. And you don't really need to be financial to do it, so you can pick some other valuable trait. Additionally, specialists don't have to grow to give their full value, unlike cottages.

The problem is, until Biology, each extra specialist basically requires 2 farms, so each extra specialist effectively replaces 2 cottages. That's a bad trade-off. So to make a specialist + great artist strategy work, I think you have to research to Biology. At Emperor, that puts you too far behind.

I think it's very viable at lower difficulty levels, where you can get to Biology much quicker, and faster win wimes in general won't allow enough time for cottage development.

 

[mdbill]

Hey Big_Ben,

I've been doing some of the math for a GA strategy too. 20 Great People would be very hard to get. 21 is probably impossible (assuming are target year is to finish in 1150AD) Let's say you can get 17 (out of your 18 - 20 people) to be artists plus one more for Music is 18. That's only 216,000 culture. You need 450,000 to win. You can't get the other 234,000 without cathedrals. Which means you need to generate $$$ to buy them, so cottages are required.

I think you're on the right track though. I wish there were a few more days left for this gauntlet. With 18 GA this could be won by 1100AD I think.

 

[Smirk]

You can't get the other 234,000 without cathedrals. Which means you need to generate [gold] to buy them, so cottages are required.

You're overlooking the fact that this strategy is using many artist specialists. With the addition of Sistine's that is a significant culture generator all by itself.

 

[BlueRenner]

Mm.. I don't buy it.

Artist Specialists -- even Great ones -- cannot approach the culture producing power of a set of cathedrals.

I could run a set of numbers if you really want, but I don't think it'll even be close...

- Bill

 

[Mad Dog]

In practise you get about 1/3 to 1/2 of final culture from GAs the way I've been playing. That is to say:
- Get 3 culture cities
- All other cities GA factories to a greater or less degree.
- Sometimes I have to build a city in the middle of otherwise useless forest just to get a wonder or bunch of settlers built).

This means 2/3 of the culture is from cathedrals, buildings, and, most importantly, towns.

While I haven't yet got a sub 1300 date I know I could with a bit better luck and micromanagement - my best so far was 1334 but I popped 3 GEs on this game and didn't get the Oracle... the philosophy slingshot alone would have got me teched out 70 turns earlier...

I'm still pretty amazed by BlueRenners 1140 though. Grats on that one. It sounds like I'm aiming at most of the right things, but I'm sure I'm missing something. I reckon possibly the main thing I could do is hold off building more than 3 cities, or at least cities far from home base until after alphabet, so I don't get the slow tech problem until I've managed to trade for the basic resource techs.

My main issue apart from seems to be getting stuff built quickly enough after the tech boom. Other than getting the towns up faster to take advantage of universal suffrage, I'm not sure what to do though.

Blurenner: do you build marketplaces before temples/cathdrals, or after, or mix and match? I prioritise useful culture buildings (missionaries, at least one monastery per religion, cathedrals and cathedral enabling temples) over marketplaces.

I agree with BlueRenner re Nationalism; printing press is better as your bonus tech after liberalism so long as you've been able to trade for the machinery to get there. I presume everyone stops tecching after they get liberalism.

I used a GE to build the hermitage in my last game, which was nice, and will have gained me about 10-15000 culture I reckon (it would have taken 100-150 turns to build), so it at least uses up a GE nicely if you happen to pop one by accident.