GotM XXI - Thread of the Spoiler!

[Boli]

There is no corruption on Democracy... thus more trade... thus more money/science. THe only disadvantge it has over republic is that a city that revoltes for two turns consecutively overthrows the government.

My game though... those pesky astezs are building spaceship parts faster than I can... I may have to wipe them out. and Thanks to the Efile tower I now have a spoltess rep. Before I kept getting perstered about the beating the French / Zulus into oblivion 2000BC or something. (AI city guards are a bit poo and those two horsemen and chariot really did a lot of groundwork. early on. )

 

[ElephantU]

I've only got a single city, and its my capital, so corruption is not an issue. The anarchy issue could bite me, but I'm fairly well ahead in city improvements - and I've got Shakes.

All the other civs are still in the game at 400AD, but I'm thinking of taking out the French. They are the most aggressive, they are on my eastern "border", and they are constantly demanding something or racing me to a wonder.

Something wierd - I just got a dip into the Celts (they were so peaceful I neglected them) and they are building Great Library in two cities at the same time! What a waste!

 

[Marlos]

Originally posted by ElephantU
Something wierd - I just got a dip into the Celts (they were so peaceful I neglected them) and they are building Great Library in two cities at the same time! What a waste!

Not as wasteful as you might think. If they research another tech that gives them a wonder to build, they will have a head start!

 

[ElephantU]

I had not seen them use that trick before - of course, I have not played OCC before, I'm usually dominating or wiping them out BC so they dont have opportunity... I'm trying to be pretty peaceful this time around...

 

[Sasebo]

I think Democracy gets one happy person per courthouse and also has no corruption to answer elephants questions, I hope that is right.
I guess right on where to found Carthage when I saw the water to the left so I went and founded it on the coast where I might get a four special city if they were in the right spots. I got a Archer I think out of the hut before I founded it so was able to explore to the east with it. I dont remember time frames but around 1 AD I got agressive with the froggies with my Archer and he bit the dust on their capital, oops. I somehow managed to have the Celts Persians and Frogs mad at me around the time of my savegame at 240 AD...I had five or six cities but OOOO were they mad! I made peace with all of them about that time the war was just NOT working.
Around that time the Persians and Celts went after each other and it became obvious the Celts were losing so I eventually got a force together and took out his capital. A long war with Persia followed this, my 1000 AD save should have this in progress I think. They did not put up much resistance.
The darn frogs were immovable I sort of left them alone for a long time and concentrated on internal buildup. I was able to get pyramids colossus and copernicus in the capital and that REALLY helped tech wise. I got into a bribery war with them but they bribed units while I bribed cities. They are pretty much in hand as I write this(1750 AD) I am going to squish them good and proper since I really hate that stupid Great Library giving them everything I have more cities then all of the other civs combined now so I think it is just footslogging to the finish now. I was amazed at how much science the capital put together I don't think I ever made a science city before but I will from now on! Sasebo

 

[ElephantU]

Sasebo - try getting Isaac Newtons in your capital too, and then change the Pheasant to Buffalo and the Wheat to Silk and you'll really take off on science!

 

[ElephantU]

Anyone - have you figured out who your "Key Civ" is for tech gifting when you are "Supreme", in lieu of the missing Purple? I got MarcoPolo and tested each of the remaining civs and the Yellow (#4) seems to be acting as Key, although my power rating seems to change so often I am still not positive.

 

[Chofritz]

If you're supreme and your key civ is dead (purple) your research will be slow. I am 99% sure that you can't get a new keyciv...

 

[Sasebo]

What is this "key" civ?? Also someone once told me that Isaac newton and copernicus would not work together so I did not built them in the same city although I surely could have. Oh well, next time! Sasebo

 

[Ace]

Originally posted by Chofritz
If you're supreme and your key civ is dead (purple) your research will be slow. I am 99% sure that you can't get a new keyciv...

Ever wonder what will happen to your research if your playing with the restart function enabled and you knock off purple after you have discovered 50-60 advances AND a new purple civ restarts with zero advances????

 

[GaryNemo]

No expansion logs posted, so here is mine thru 500AD. Also, I wanted to share this with you all before I'm banned. If you're curious, take a look at Game of Democracy II, Turn 300BC, The Rasputin Tapes.

I kept one of the Settlers as None. This land is DRY.

4000 BC 2 Setts Bronze HRB. No River. 1 Hut. Build Road
3950 Hut: Archer None.
3850 Fdd Carthage working Wheat. R: Alphabet. Wine.
3500 Hut: Scrolls of Currency... Coal.
3400 IPRB $4 of $6 gold. First irrigation. None Settler Roading.
3150 Alphabet R: CBurial over Map Mason Pot WarCode Writing
3000 First Settler. Now building Horse w Pheasant...
2950 Founded Utica. Whale. Spent $8 on Horse. ... Whale.
2750 First Horse rides out... eventually finds River!
2700 Hut: Scrolls of Ceremonial Burial, dlays Monarchy! Resch: CodeLaws over Masonry Mysticism Pot WarCode Wheel. ... Iron.
2600 CBurial R: Monarchy over Trade Writing Poly Map Wheel.
2500 Hut: $50 Polar Hut: scrolls Trade. Now Monarchy in 16!
2400 60,000 #1 in 2c, F5 $4 -0, Sci 5/11 7T, F11 Mfg=6 #2, FS=4.4

2250 founded Malaca on River
2050 Monarchy R: Myst over Mason Pot Map War Wheel, No Writing
2050 BC, Hannibal proclaimed King of new Monarchy by oedo!

2000 met Celts who demand Trade, declare war, attack my Archer!
1750 founded Caralis Coal Mine.
1650 Mysticism R: Wri over Poly Map Wheel. No Masonry. Silly Celt Horse makes our newly arrived Phx a Veteran. Archer None also Vet.
1600 Horse locates French Paris, Literacy for Trade, Pottery for Monarchy, Writing for Bronze, Treaty, We demand, they give $100.
100,000 pop 4c, F5 $4 -0 Sc 10/10 12T, Mfg=3 #1, FS=6.5 #1
Now R: Philosophy over Poly Map Wheel.
1550 First guard Phalanx @ Carthage, start Temple. Coal Mine.
1450 founded PanormusFe, dry Leptis Parva. 120,000 in 6c.
1350 produced first DIPLOMAT
1200 Celt wanted Cease Fire, they gave $100. Philo R: Masonry over Repub Poly etc, R: Warrior over Constr Med Repub Wheel, no Astronomy Mono Poly.
1150 Temple of Carthage, St Pyramids. Phx Hut: Adv tribe: Cartenna
975 chasing French Settler, a Barb Horse appears!
950 Zulu Capital moved to Bapedi! 180,000 in 7 cities.
900 Celtic Capital moved to Kells! French Warrior Sneak Attack our Horse on Hill! Defeated, severly wounded but now veteran. We violate Celt CF so our Vet Archer kills stacked Phx & Warrior.
850 Caralis builds our First CARAVAN. For the Pyramids! WarCode, R: Math Cop's over Poly Iron Map Constr Wheel. Celt Warriors dash into Cardiff.
825 founded Rusicade. Persian Warrior, gives us $50.
750 Bribe French Phx $94 None. Bribe Pers Warr $26, None.
700 Pers Warrior foolishly attacks my new Mtn Warrior!
650 Built PYRAMIDS of Carthage. No competition. Celt Warr $59
575 Paris cancels order of Beads, arghh
350,000 in 8c, $9 -1, Sci 19/11 15T, Mfg=33 #1, FS=5.4
550 Math, R: Poly over Ast Feud Map Med Repub Univ. Founded Gades, Zulus have started the Colossus! Ho hum. HG in 3 turns...
420,000 in 9c, $13 -1, Sci 22/11 16T, Mfg=35 #1, FS=4.0
525 Built HANGING GARDENS of CARTHAGE, WLTK, start Library. French offer Maps for CF, granted. Temple Malaca, Wine Mine of Cartenna.
420,000 in 9c, $14 -2, Sci 27/9 17T, Mfg=39 #1, FS=4.6
325 BC, Aztecs st Grt Library, Malaca WLTK, Poly, R: Mono Mike's over Astronomy Cop's, Sea Harbor Expl, Iron Constr Univ & Wheel.
500,000 in 9c, $16 -2, Sci 32/9 18T, Mfg=41 #1, FS=4.4
175 Zulu Elephant gives us $75. Zulu & Fr Secret Alliance!
125 French give us $50, Carthage Copper Paris PAID $172 ! Founded Rusucurru Oil, Girba. Carthage LiBRARY, start Mike's.
100 Zulu Elephant Sneak Attack our Fortified Mtn Archer. Aztec cap> Tlatelolco. MONOTHEISM, R: Republic over Astron Med Univ Feud.
540,000 in 11c, $18 -3, Sci 45/7 19T, Mfg=45 #1, FS=5.2
50 BC, Catapult reduces Cardiff, Persians then offer Iron, then $300 for CF !? We decline... Their Horse attacks & dies.
25 BC, Archer & Catapult destroy Cardiff, $39, they want WAR!

0001 AD Zulus nearly completed Colossus. 30,00,70%
600,000 in 11c, $20 -3, Sci 47/7 20T, Mfg=48 #1, FS=4.6 4.Sett+0! 6.Dip+1 7.Carav+5 2.Warr None, 6.Phx+1 2.Archer+2 1.Horse 1.Cat +1st.Crusader 12.Supported 4.None Casualties=0!
Building Michelangelo's Chapel & Republic.
0020 Zulus build COLOSSUS - Zimbabwe?
0040 Republic, R: Seafaring over Astron Const/Aqua Bank Univ Wheel
730,000 in 11c, $20-3, Sci 52/10 21T, Mfg=47 #1, FS=4.2 Oedo!
0060 Formed Republic, 20,20,60% , Bribe Zulu Eleph $112 None, 3 WLTK
750,000 in 11c, $19-3, Sci 65/8 21T, Mfg=57 #1, FS=4.6 +2 WLTK
0100 Carthage Spice Malaca PAID $96! Bribe Pers Archer $99 None.
900,000 in 11c, $19-3, Sci 66/8 21T, Mfg=56 #1, FS=4.1
0120 1180,000 11 $22-3, Sci 74/7 21T, Mfg=55 #1, FS=3.8
0140 1250,000 11 $23-3, Sci 80/6 21T, Mfg=58 #1, FS=3.6
0160 1320,000 11 bribe 2 Pers legions $132 ea Nones.
0180 Harbors, R: Astron over Med Univ Feud, No construction! Catapult blasts Celts, Legions storm Kells $48, Fdd Leptis Magna. Paris cancels Gold Demand, Drat! 20,00,80%
1390,000 in 12c, $28-3, Sci 118/5 22T, Mfg=63 #1, FS=3.7
0200 Bribe Celt Settler $10 None. Treasury down to $17.
0220 Fr Settler near Cartenna Senate continues action!
0240 Fr sneak attack. Celts killed None Warrior! Astronomy R: Constr over Wheel Bank Med Nav Feud. Bribe Celt Phx $50 None.
0260 Crusader & catapult destroyed Carmarthen.
0280 Bribe Pers Phx $66 None. Treas $3 !
0300 Founded NCardiff (Carthago Nova)
Archers destroy Armagh $51. CELTS DESTROYED
0340 1510,000 in 14c, $30-3, Sci 133/5 23T, Mfg=64, FS=3.7
0360 Construction of Aquaducts! R: Wheel over Bridge Bank Univ Nav... No Theology. 20,10,70% AQUADUCT OF CARTHAGE
0380 Persan Cat $140 $too much. Gave Republic, but no Maps.
0400 1670,000 14c, 20,30,50% Polar Hut: Crusader None. 5 WLTK
0420 Cat & Legion storm Lyons, $55 Barx Banking. Senate ok.
0440 2090,000 15c, $38-6, Sci 89/8 25T, Mfg=76, FS=3.5
0460 2370,000 15c, $42-6, Sci 105/6 25T, Mfg=86?, FS=3.4
0480 Pesky Zulu Warr CF. Wheel: R: Medicine over Bridge Nav Feud. No Univ. Built COPERNICUS of Carthage SSC. Zulu $35, Cartenna Dye to Carthage PAID $96+3 , HARBOR of Parnormous 20,30,50%
2740,000 15c, $45-6, Sci 140/5 26 Tech, F11 Mfg=75, FS=2.9

0500 AD 20,20,60%
2950,000 15c, $41-7, Sci 178/4 26T, Mfg=79, FS=3.0 5.Sett+5 9.Dip+1 0.Carav+3 0.Explr+2 4.Legion+2 5.Archer 9.Phx 2.Warr 1.Horse 1.Eleph.None 3.Crusader 3.Catapult , 21.Supported 12.None Casualties=1.Warr.None, 1.Barx.Lyons 1.Aqua 0.Market+1 1.Libr 1.Harbor+1 2.Temple

 

[ElephantU]

Originally posted by Sasebo
What is this "key" civ?? Also someone once told me that Isaac newton and copernicus would not work together so I did not built them in the same city although I surely could have. Oh well, next time! Sasebo

The KeyCiv is the AI Civ that your tech level is compared to. If you are ahead in number of techs (does not matter what they are), you get penalized with extra beaker costs for your current research. If you are behind, your beaker cost is lower. Your Key Civ is based on your Power Rating from the Foreign Advisor screen (F3) and the list of civs in numberical order (White=1,Purple=7). So, for example, if you are Supreme, your KeyCiv is Purple. You can find all the detail here:

http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum3/HTML/001828.html?17

IsaacNewtons and Copernicus are vital to getting a Super Science City going. I'm doing OneCityChallenge and I'm getting 576 beakers every turn, and I'm still growing.

 

[ElephantU]

Originally posted by Chofritz
If you're supreme and your key civ is dead (purple) your research will be slow. I am 99% sure that you can't get a new keyciv...

I'm still trying to track the issue when I am Supreme, but when I was Mighty I gifted a tech to Yellow and my beaker cost went down. Not sure how that fits. The other indicator is that only Yellow will stop talking to me ("no more time") after a single tech gift, just like the KeyCiv always does, but the other civs will accept more (but I wont gift the French!).

 

[ElephantU]

Originally posted by GaryNemo
2700 Hut: Scrolls of Ceremonial Burial, dlays Monarchy! Resch: CodeLaws over Masonry Mysticism Pot WarCode Wheel. ... Iron.
2600 CBurial R: Monarchy over Trade Writing Poly Map Wheel.

I think the "Scrolls" should have been something beside CerBur... (see 2600). You really suffered from "Scrolls" early in this game!

(2nd pass edit):

On second thought, it makes more sense if you change 2600 to CodeLaws and change "dlays" to "speeds up" - you dont loose the researched beakers if you get the current research tech from a hut...

 

[GaryNemo]

ElephantU, you're right, CBurial was one that helped!. The others were too futuristic, and they were what weighed on my mind. One None Archer and the rest junk. This land seems really DRY, that is the drag, eh?

Anyway, I finally got Cannon and am about to blast Paris out of my way - after one more Caravan delivery! Notice Paris canceled the order demand twice. The Citizens have been worrying about that over in the Democ Game, starting just now... We could really use you Deity players over there!

 

[ElephantU]

Changing Demand is my biggest bear right now - besides the French! I was slogging a Hides caravan to the Zulus when they changed, so I turned it around and delivered it to Paris. Now all three trade routes are to Paris - perhaps I should try finding the critical path to get the road bonus... if they'll let me road in their territory...
Your logs were tough reading! Celts were worse in yours than mine - are you doing MGE or 2.42? Tech gifting helps. I did not see ONE capital switch so far. Kinda sad you had to let the Zulus get Colossus - that's always the foundation of my SCC. Midgame, there's all these WoW that I want to get or keep out of AI hands - Statue, Leos, Eiffel, SunTzu, KingRich, Darwins. Hard to keep focused on OCC path. I'll still go for UN, though. And if anyone else starts Manhattan Project...

 

[GaryNemo]

950 Zulu Capital moved to Bapedi! 180,000 in 7 cities.
900 Celtic Capital moved to Kells! French Warrior Sneak Attack our Horse on Hill! Defeated, severly wounded but now veteran. We violate Celt CF so our Vet Archer kills stacked Phx & Warrior.

Sorry my logs are tough to read! I've noticed, it's always tough to study someone else's logs, tho ... an excuse of mine.

I don't really care that much about Colossus, an old habit of mine to make it better for the AI, a habit that dies hard. In these King games, Pyramids are #1. And, I always love the Hanging Gardens and the Celebrations.

Chofritz, I noticed you had 30 cities in the BC years! You would make a Great Domestic Advisor in the Democracy game, and nominations are open now. I may nominate you today! Further, if you'd like me to help once you are elected, just let me know. ICQ me anytime, anyone; 168387304.

 

[ElephantU]

I don't know about these poachers from the Democracy Game...

Originally posted by GaryNemo
I don't really care that much about Colossus, an old habit of mine to make it better for the AI, a habit that dies hard.

Yeah, I guess it would give ONE of the AI a lift in tech - but then they always put it in the wrong city, and don't add any other SSC improvements...

In these King games, Pyramids are #1. And, I always love the Hanging Gardens and the Celebrations.

King games are a good time to try OCC...

 

[Kemal]

Man! I guess I've been spending too much time on another civ game for the past few months! Not only did I totally forgot about the fast movement on rivers, but I also - and this is unforgivable - forgot about the oedo years and when the correct time for a revolution was. Due to this stupidity I lost 3(!) precious turns to anarchy before I was finally proclaimed King of the Carthaginian Monarchy.

I started out by founding the city of carthage on the same spot as most of you have, near the lake, and used my other settler for a city near the rivers.
I decided to build a horseman first, as the map was pretty small and I hoped to find the AI pretty fast. Got lucky, and found a nomad from the hut on the hills northeast of carthage, used it to get some water over these arid lands, so settling in the northeast became a possibility.

The first two AI civs (French, Celts) were contacted early on and after appearing to be friendly at first, trying to share their techs and gold with me, they both broke the peace within 6 turns of contact. This attack cost me my horseman and a warrior near the celts, and as I noticed the Celts had an archer and a legion, I thought the time to be right to start producing some military units... and fast!

I'm not much of a warmonger, as I usually finish by spaceship, but after blocking the french with some phalanx I stood before the gates of Cardiff without encountering much resistance. I should have known that a Legion and an archer just don't vanish in thin air, as my 6 vet elephants and a legion of my own encountered heavy resistance taking Cardiff, with only 1 elephant and the legion left after taking the city. (500 BC).

In the meantime I had also sent armies to take over the French and as they were pretty weak had little problems with them (used dips to break Paris' city walls).

I got quite a few armies by then and as the next two civs I encountered were pretty aggressive as well (Persia, Zulus) I decided to just go and conquer the world, also because I know understood what a 80x20 map really means. I had been trying to colonize the "island" to the south when I realized I was sending my settlers to the south pole!
Both Persia and the Zulus fell quickly to my knights when it appeared that the only remaining civ (Aztecs) couldn't be reached except by boat or polar expeditions. Thanks to my earlier error of judgment about colonizing other lands, I had 3 triremes which ferried my knight to the other side, were I got quite an unpleasant surprise. I landed my forces next to an Aztec settler and as I was pretty confident of wiping them out fast, I didn't sign a peace treaty. Stupid!

For some reason the Aztecs had also researched Chivalry by then, even though it later appeared their empire consisted of only 3 cities.
So of course one of their knights pounded half of my expeditionary force into the ground, and another knight was lost on a settler standing on a plain tile , so I only had 2 knights left and needed reinforcements before I could finish them off.

as I noted earlier, they were actually very weak and were easily defeated - no pikeman to be seen btw - but it cost me lots of additional turns, so I finished some time after 1AD.

Finally, if you're still reading all of this , I have a question concerning the versions all you other civ players use. I noticed some players talking about peacefull Celts and bringing in Caravans and building roads through their lands, are you guys using MGE ort classic? I 'm never able to maintain peace for more than 10 turns before I'm sneak attacked, and always need to bring in caravans via the sea for most of the journey. To illustrate this, I finished this Gotm by wiping everybody out fairly early, but I ended with still a spotless reputation.

 

[ElephantU]

Yes, some of us are still using Classic/2.42 - should we make a rule about this in the GOTM rules?

The other thing some of us do is major tech gifting. You can keep the AI happy if you are often giving things away, just wait a few turns so you can build that wonder or reach the next tech before giving key things away. I had the Persians, Aztecs, and Celts eating out of my hand; the French were very restless, as we shared a "border" and had fought a few brushwars, and the Zulus I bribed into attacking the French, but they wanted lots of gifts to keep the war going.