gpt trade

[KaptainK714]

Ive been trying to get AI to accept/give gpt for trading tech/lux, to keep AI from starting war, but they never seem to accept. I usually play c3c at regent. Can you check if AI has + gpt? or is there something else i should check

Thanks

 

[vmxa]

It likely that you have a bad reputation. You can test it with a deal they would accept, say 20 gold for 10 g, then add 1gpt from you and see if they now will not accept it.

 

[KaptainK714]

I can trade for lump sum gold but not gpt, does a bad rep only make gpt harder?

 

[vmxa]

It means you will never be able to give gpt for anything. It does not mean they won't trade.

 

[KaptainK714]

Thanks i'll keep on eye on my rep

 

[Bede]

It is so very unusual at Regent for the AI to have any gpt to spare that I find it very hard to play at that level.

The trading reputation mechanic can be difficult to comprehend, but put most simply, if the AI will not accept your offer of gold per turn for a one time purchase like technology, or if they will not accept a deal offering them a resource for a lump sum payment, then you likely have had similar deal broken in the past.

They willl continue to trade with you, just you will not be able to offer per turn payments of any kind. They will be more than happy to offer you their gpt for hard goods like tech if they have it.

That will affect the course of the entire game, though at Regent the consequences will be minimal.

 

[Optional]

The AI is very picky. You don't need to have done much wrong for the AI to not accept your GPT anymore.
If you sent an early curragh or galley out, and spent more then one turn in the territorial waters of the same AI civ without having signed a Right of Passage agreement, then that's your reputation wrecked for GPT; the AI doesn't accept your credit anymore.
You can still make Right of Passage agreements. That 's what makes it a little unlogical: you can show little respect for Right of passage agreements and the AI will usually still be quite happy to sign such an agreement with you, but another agreement; the GPT trade, is off limits.

I'm trying to make the way I play civ a bit more of a trading game at the moment so I'm trying to figure out how the AI behaves in agreements, but I'm sensing that my rep really mustn't have a single spot on it. I probably need to budget if I'm sending a galley out!
Because what would that cost in embassies; discovering the other continent, meeting, say five AI's, their coasts already covered by their borders? 400 gold? Easily that, I would say.

Please let somebody correct me if I'm seeing this wrong.

 

[Bede]

The AI is very picky. You don't need to have done much wrong for the AI to not accept your GPT anymore.

If you sent an early curragh or galley out, and spent more then one turn in the territorial waters of the same AI civ without having signed a Right of Passage agreement, then that's your reputation wrecked for GPT; the AI doesn't accept your credit anymore.

You can still make Right of Passage agreements. That 's what makes it a little unlogical: you can show little respect for Right of passage agreements and the AI will usually still be quite happy to sign such an agreement with you, but another agreement; the GPT trade, is off limits.

I'm trying to make the way I play civ a bit more of a trading game at the moment so I'm trying to figure out how the AI behaves in agreements, but I'm sensing that my rep really mustn't have a single spot on it. I probably need to budget if I'm sending a galley out!

Because what would that cost in embassies; discovering the other continent, meeting, say five AI's, their coasts already covered by their borders? 400 gold? Easily that, I would say.

Please let somebody correct me if I'm seeing this wrong.

Afraid you are.

The only thing that affects your ability to offer GPT for hard goods like technology (or maps, or a lump sum of gold) is a broken trade agreement in the past. The AI's attitude (Gracious to Furious is the scale I think) is another thing entirely. Sailing or walking into the AI's borders without a RoP may affect their attitude but has nothing to do with your trading reputation.

Agreements can be broken in lots of different ways, and not all of them by your action. If a volcanic eruption cuts a road to the AI and you were sending them a resource down that road (it was your only connection to their internal trade network) your trading reputation is irreparably broken. If a war disrupts a trade route, or if you are trading gpt or resources to a a civilization that is destroyed by war, or if you prematurely end a Military Alliance secured by your resources, or your gpt, by eliminating the enemy all have the same effect.

And finally the AI will not accept you gpt payment if your cash flow is already in deficit, even though you have a big enough cash reserve to secure the full twenty turn payment. A Civ elder (Charis) was famous for mortgaging the economy to get a tech by turning off both entertainment and science spending, then turning the spending back up to deficit levels and financing the deficit by making a map trade every turn.

 

[Optional]

Bede,
I'm glad with your response, as I haven't ran extensive tests, just taken a few 'snapshots' from gamesaves.
I'm clearly not very aware yet of how the AI might respond to things.

I read closely your post in that thread called 'zero research gambit', and that lead me to believe there is a margin in which you can trade with the AI on Emperor level.
I'm playing civ for about a year now, just moved up to Emperor level, and there's still a lot for me to learn there. At first trading seems unforgiving. The AI asks a lot of gold for a tech, then the price collapses as soon as I have the tech as well and try to pass it on. My instinct said: 'Forget it, this doesn't work.' But that was just a primary response. I haven't really explored it.

I like to know more aspects of the game. For me it's not about beating a certain level. Emperor is easy enough to beat for me once I've got the wind in the sails and I can more or less ignore the AI. But that's not a satisfying way of playing, I find. It also doesn't mean I've mastered the level. Next time I will not have the wind in my sails and I fall flat on my face. I'm not clever at all yet, still need to find out a LOT!

 

[Bede]

I read closely your post in that thread called 'zero research gambit', and that lead me to believe there is a margin in which you can trade with the AI on Emperor level.

I'm playing civ for about a year now, just moved up to Emperor level, and there's still a lot for me to learn there. At first trading seems unforgiving. The AI asks a lot of gold for a tech, then the price collapses as soon as I have the tech as well and try to pass it on. My instinct said: 'Forget it, this doesn't work.' But that was just a primary response. I haven't really explored it.

I like to know more aspects of the game. For me it's not about beating a certain level. Emperor is easy enough to beat for me once I've got the wind in the sails and I can more or less ignore the AI. But that's not a satisfying way of playing, I find. It also doesn't mean I've mastered the level. Next time I will not have the wind in my sails and I fall flat on my face. I'm not clever at all yet, still need to find out a LOT!

You need to master the art of the N-fer, in other words getting multiple deals out of one tech. You do that by becoming a broker. Keep a close eye on who knows who and who knows what. That will open opportunities for you to trade one of your techs for an AI tech, then trading that tech to another AI for a tech, then trade that tech to a third, and sometimes even a fourth. Then back around the horn again trading what you just learned to the first guy in the round and maybe even the second.

Trading tech without a counter party is a mug's game and you are bound to come up short. So you need to make all the contacts you can before the AI gets to know everyone else and leverage those contacts into trading rounds.

Somewhere in the archives is a trading exercise that will help you learn that art. I think the winner acquired something like 16 or 18 techs in a single turn with multiple trading rounds. Elsewhere in the archives is an RBD succession game where Sirian leaped entire eras in a single bound.

There is another game in the succession games archives called Jumpmasters-Stealing a Stairway to Heaven. A no-research game that went all the way to Space without ever generating a single beaker, just lots of commerce and some canny dealings and a little theft and extortion.

But patience is the key. Until the Middle Ages the AI will not have enough cash in the kitty to make big gpt deals, after the Middle Ages you can earn much gpt per turn. I have powered entire Space Races with AI money.

Why do I get the feeling it is time for another in the Grumpy Old Monk series?

 

[vmxa]

Optional, one thing to help evaluate what a tech is worth. If you look at the editor for a given tech it has a cost. You can calculate how many beakers the tech requires for the map and level.

This is how much the tech is worth. That worth goes down as the cost to research it goes down. This occurs as civs learn that tech.

Then if the AI is researching that tech, it is further reduced by the amount the civ has already put into research.

IOW if the tech is 400 beakers and they have already accumulated 200 beakers, they are not going to pay "full price" to acquire it from you.

In addition the AI can trade from another civ at a discount, so that further reduces what they will pay.

Lux are a separate matter in trade dealing. They have a consideration for the value the lux has to you. How big is your empire, how many luxs to you already have? These things affect the value of the lux.

If you have 2 lux a 3rd one is worth more as it has a bonus for markets. If you have 5 towns, a lux does X amount of good, but it does even more for you if you have 30 towns.

 

[sercer88]

Why do I get the feeling it is time for another in the Grumpy Old Monk series?

I know I need it...

 

[bustedsynapses]

I suck at trading. I find that the AI will almost never trade reasonably with me, if at all. In Conquests, the trade routes and trade reps are far too fragile. I do find that, if I can find an immediate neighbor who needs something I have, and if I trade very early with that nation, then I can keep them off my back for almost the entire game, and they will be gracious to me. I then avoid trading with almost anyone else, unless the trade route is very secure. Sometimes, I can get tech from the nation feeling gracious towards me, as they are addicted to me goods, and the AI civs also like to not have to worry about a single border.

Other than that, I just conquer to get techs, as I can never keep up in the race. Besides, the name of the game is Conquests....

In regular civ3, well,I surely can't help you, because the AI will not accept gpt from me starting from the beginning of the game. I think I simply start with a bad rep at Emperor. It also might be that I have this bad habit of starting wars whenever the other civs blithely traipse through my territory with their slave caravans (settlers). I'm Very Touchy about my borders. (It's one of the peeves I have about the game. The other civs let opposing forces march through their territories to get to me, but I can't ever go through theirs.) Besides, I like the free workers. Do I get them early enough, they do wonders for my economy. Perhaps you mirror my bad habits?

 

[Optional]

...the AI will not accept gpt from me starting from the beginning of the game. I think I simply start with a bad rep at Emperor.

I had the same problem, but I'm convinced Bede was right when he said you need gold coming in every turn for the AI to accept your gold per turn. It doesn't matter how much gold you have sitting in the bank, you need a positive cash flow.

I'm now studying the 'Jumpmasters' thread the grumpy old monk advised, and it's really opening my eyes. I had a question about 'zero research' myself in this forum one or two weeks ago, but I had no clue it could mean THIS!!!
I can advise it to anyone who has a problem with trading. The game is a conquests game, the level is Emperor, and the target is to win by Spaceship, without doing any research, EVER! Absolutely fascinating stuff for someone like me, who is struggling with trade. This is bound to improve my play! Thanks, Bede!

 

[Light-Giver]

I would like to add that your size will effect it too, if you are smaller than them, then they will trade for stuff in their favor, if your strong you can trade for stuff in your favor, to test this try to trade 20 gold for 20 gold, if they do not except then they think your weak and do not deserve a fair trade, if they trade like 25 gold for 20 gold from you then they think your strong and dont want to upset you.

 

[MAS]

I would like to add that your size will effect it too, if you are smaller than them, then they will trade for stuff in their favor, if your strong you can trade for stuff in your favor, to test this try to trade 20 gold for 20 gold, if they do not except then they think your weak and do not deserve a fair trade, if they trade like 25 gold for 20 gold from you then they think your strong and dont want to upset you.

I think this is incorrect, in fact there are reasons why it would be the opposed.

First of all, you can't trade gold for gold, they will never accept such a trade.
You can trade gpt for gold, or gold for gpt. In either case, you will always end up giving them more gold than you get in return.

(on a side note, I've had a problem with the AI refusing a trade a couple of times, I discovered the problem was that I was accidentally asking for either gold or gpt when I was also offering the same back, an such trades are never accepted)

When you trade lux, the value of the lux is determined by the amount of happiness effect it will give you empire wide. For example, if you have 10 cities, and they have 21 cities, assuming none of those cities has marketplaces, you can trade 1 lux and get 2 in return. But if all your 10 cities have marketplaces, (and the AI doesn't) and you already have 6 lux, then you will need to offer 2 lux to get 1 in return.

(A small exploit is possible: if you disconnect some of your lux, then trade, then connect them again....)

Having a smaller empire will help you in trading lux in your favor.