Great General Uses (patch 2.08)

[carl corey]

I know there have been a lot of threads about the best use of a Great General, but I'm trying to gather the different ideas and add some of my own. This thread will refer to Warlords with the 2.08 patch installed, meaning:


- Leadership gives double experience points
- Heroic Epic available with a level 4 unit
- Military Academy gives +50% production for military units
- Military Academy requires Education
- Military Academy gives 3 culture


I'll get the ball rolling by giving an idea about what each of these modifications means. I'll start with the most obvious, getting Heroic Epic with a level 4 unit (10XP for normal civs, 8XP for Charismatic ones). Since you can get to level 4 by fighting only against barbs you can enable Heroic Epic very early. This goes well with aiming for early Literature and the Great Library and it means you can forgo using a Great General as a Warlord to get a level 5 unit (needed before the patch). If you aim for West Point on the other hand you might still want to do it, but West Point comes late enough that it might not be very useful and it's also on a not so useful tech path.

I've never used the Leadership promotion before, but with the improvement it has received it might just make things interesting. What if you have an early military advantage, like a Unique Unit, or maybe you're just ahead in techs? You could use the Great General as a Warlord to make the maximum amount of units jump a level to make them even more powerful, and give the unit to which you attach the Warlord the Leadership promotion. For example, a Praetorian with the Leadership promotion will just "add" XPs to the original 20 given by the Warlord. The total XPs gained would be: 20 - number of XPs used to give him Leadership + number of XPs/2 that he gains after Leadership. You still lose a level to get Leadership, but maybe the additional benefits outweigh this?

Also, after the patch, the Military Academy is clearly worth considering. You can either set up a second military city beside the Heroic Epic one or add a Military Academy to the first one for super fast production. I have a doubt about the benefits of settling a lot of Great Generals as Military Instructors in the same city. It's rare that they give you enough extra levels to make it worth it. So maybe having a Heroic Epic + Military Instructor city (3rd level units without Vassalage or Theocracy) and a Military Academy + Military Instructor city is a better idea.

If you have other ideas, old or new, I'd be happy to see them. Maybe with your help we can develop this into an article worthy of the Civ 4 War Academy.

 

[thelibra]

Great idea, I was actually going to start a thread today for GG questions and thingies, but I'm glad you did instead, since you've obviously got the latest patch info and I'm still on the previous one for some reason.

Me personally, I go for the long-term benefit 2/3 of the time. Since Cavalry is used right up till you can get West Point, the Military Instructor +2 exp is a great combo with Barracks and Stables.

Since this ties into the specialization of a city, I would recommend as advice for any player that their primary military production exp bonus city be on a coastal city. That way you can take advantage of the bonus for land AND sea units (invaluable if you want fast boats straight out of harbor).

Since it seems most people have a long period of peacetime after about 0-500AD if you've got a specialized production city that can churn out lots of hammers on its own, there's really no reason I can see to waste a GG on the +25% mil unit production bonus. I'm pretty sure there's enough production improvement buildings out there, plus micromanagement, that you can pop units out at a reasonable pace. And culture isn't a really big concern for the military production city as long as it's not bordering another civ, but even if there was, there's lots of cultural buildings out there to choose from. There are not, however, too many improvements that give your units a plus to experience right out of the gate.

Soooo... I would say if you're at the tail-end of a war and don't need to use your GG for an immediate boost to your stack of doom, the best use of a GG always seems to be as a +2 exp military instructor.

+4 from Barracks
+3 from Stable
+4 from Drydock
+2 from military instructor gives you an instant Level 5 unit

So, right out of the gates, your boots/planes have 6xp, your cav has 9xp, and your boats have 10xp... that's not even counting leader trait or UU bonuses or Wonders.

So, even in peacetime, without any wonders your units are popping out at level 3-5... Add Pentagon and West Point, and you've suddenly got another +6 bonus...

12xp boots/planes
15xp cav
16xp boats

Thoses are some seriously hardcore units that get to walk into their very first battle as if they'd had all the grit of George S. Patton.

Now if you get TWO GGs... then try keeping one until you've built Westpoint, then build your stack of doom, and then use your GG to give each unit the additional XP... Now you've got... good lord... Super Uber Death Units of DOOM!

I don't even want to think about how incredibly brutal Japan would be with this kinda setup, or any Civ with a combo of Cha, Agg, and Prot (shiver).

 

[futurehermit]

my most recent thinking is spam as many military academies as you are able to in production cities and beeline for military tradition. then spam cavalry

 

[carl corey]

thelibra, you're making some mistakes about the XP bonuses: Barracks give only +3 in Warlords and Stables +2. Also, barracks and stables work only for land units, not boats. Boats get only the Drydock bonus.

By the way, what do you mean by planes? If you're really talking about air units they don't get any experience. They're permanently level 1 units.

So without a Military Instructor or Theocracy or Vassalage your early base outputs are: +3 for Melee/Archery/Recon units and +5 for Mounted units, and later on +4 from Drydocks for water units. With one Military Instructor that's enough for level 3 land units (+7 for Mounted isn't different from +5) and also level 3 water units with Drydocks.

futurehermit: the AIs also tend to go for Military Academies. Why don't you take over their cities, you'll have them already built for you? Anyway, it's true that if you're going for mounted units you might consider dumping any Great General into a Military Academy. They're quite expensive to build so this will help. But what about early Great Generals? Do you keep them for later or use them right away?

 

[futurehermit]

my first GG I will use on a level 3 medic with march promotion when it is able. i beeline the techs required for military academy so starting with 2nd GG I will start with military academies. and don't worry i take over the ai and any captured academies are welcome.

mass units ftw!

 

[carl corey]

I wonder if we can separate this into two categories early on: having a super Unique Unit with a long lifespan on one hand might make me more inclined to use the Great General for Leadership & multiple units promotions, while attacking with "normal" units might suggest using the first GG for a Medic 3 as I'll pause more frequently to heal along the way. Also, I'll have to factor in Charismatic leaders with their faster promotions... Lots of work to be done.

Also, I don't usually go for early Military Tradition; I'm a Grenadiers kind of guy. If you feel like sharing more info, about tech paths and all, please do. We'll figure out later what should go in the final article and what should be just an addendum.

 

[cabert]

You might be interested in synergies (playstyles/traits/civics).

Charismatic just screams for MInstructors :
With 2 instructors+ a barracks, you have 7 xp
+ vassalage or theocracy (depending if your capital is your military factory or not and depending on your religious status), you have 9xp which is enough for level 4.

With 4 instructors+barracks, you have 11 xp. With vassalage, theocracy or simply stables for mounted, you have level 5 units out of the gates
This is even more true if you run representation.
Those 4 MI will offer you 12 beakers


Military academies come late anyway, so maybe it's worth the bother when they are available. But i get most GG before they are

 

[shadow2k]

My first GG always goes for a Medic 3 Chariot. He'll never defend, so he'll always stays alive unless my entire stack gets killed. The reason I love this so much is that I tend to want to wait for my high xp guys to heal, so they can continue to get high level promotions...and I hate leaving them behind because they have to heal. With a Medic 3 in the stack, I don't have to wait on them. So my highest xp troops are always on the move with me.

The next one goes in whatever city will build West Point as a Military Instructor. Barracks (3) + Theocracy or Vassalage (2) + WP (4) + MI (2) = 11xp out of the gate for any land based troops. That means I can have City Raider 3 cannons out of the box...and those are just absolutely devastating.

All the rest build Military Academies. WP city first, which gets Heroic Epic as well.

I find that +20xp to one single unit is a waste. You either use him to bust open a tough D, in which case you'll lose him at some point. Or you only fight with him when he's got ridiculous odds in his favor, which means you aren't really putting him to good use anyway.

 

[johnny_rico]

The leadership promotion with a charismatic leader is a nice thing. I like to hold onto my GG's with a civ with mounted UU. Beeline for military tradition, upgrade your best mounted units to cavalry (at this point of the game you should have a few 13 xp level 5 units). Drop a warlord on these units (1 per) adding leadership and blitz and then mop up cities with a couple of them after softening defenders with seige. 2 or 3 combat IV/leadership/blitz cavalry pack an insane punch. If you can get another level out of these guys (which you should), you can add commando. Then, they can cripple cities with pillaging.

 

[thelibra]

thelibra, you're making some mistakes about the XP bonuses: Barracks give only +3 in Warlords and Stables +2.

Sorry about that. I couldn't remember the numbers offhand, so I went by what was on http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/info/improvements/

I guess CFC needs a bit of updating... they're also missing the Stables thingy on the list. Still, this only goes further to illustrate how important than extra +2xp can be, if the imps are giving a full point less than what I thought in my previous post.

Also, barracks and stables work only for land units, not boats. Boats get only the Drydock bonus.

Aw hell, sorry. That's what I get for trying to write a response between calls at work. I knew that in my head, but apparently it didn't make it down to the fingers where I was typing...

By the way, what do you mean by planes? If you're really talking about air units they don't get any experience. They're permanently level 1 units.

And even if they did, they wouldn't get any benefit from the barracks because they're not a land unit, another "brilliant" contribution in my post, heh. Actually though, to be honest, I haven't used planes yet, so I was guessing at their being able to hold xp and be promoted. That's odd that they can't be.

So without a Military Instructor or Theocracy or Vassalage your early base outputs are: +3 for Melee/Archery/Recon units and +5 for Mounted units, and later on +4 from Drydocks for water units. With one Military Instructor that's enough for level 3 land units (+7 for Mounted isn't different from +5) and also level 3 water units with Drydocks.

I would beg to differ on the +7 vs. +5 being no different for mounted units, but the degree to which I would differ depends on whether or not mounted units get exp if they withdraw from combat. Anyone here know if they do, or at what rate units gain XP?

Anyway, If you have CHA as a leader trait, then 8xp is the next promotion level. If I graduate a cav at 5xp, it has to (I think) survive AND win 3 battles before it gets that next promotion. That's a pretty big risk to take, and there's a pretty good chance that you'll lose at least one out of three battles along the way, which (again, I THINK) either nets you 0xp if you withdraw, or loss of an expensive cav unit if you don't.

Sooo... assuming a 2/3 victory rate in combat...

Group A: 3 cavs graduating at 5xp ea.

vs Group B: 3 cavs graduating at 7xp ea.

...with the goal being a Level 8 unit.

Group A:
Battle 1: 2cav @ 6xp ea. 1cav at 5xp (or 1cav dead)
Battle 2: Best case scenario is probably 1cav @7xp, 1cav @6xp... (or also 2cavs dead)
Battle 3: 1cav @ 8xp... probably 2 cavs dead by now.

That's one L4 cav unit for the cost of 3cavs and 3 battles worth of turns.

Group B:
Battle 1: 2cav @ 8xp. 1cav @ 7xp (or 1cav dead).

That's two L4 cav units for the cost of 3cavs and one battles worth of turns, and a pretty good chance your 3rd unit that didn't get the promotion is still alive.


Another really big deciding factor would be as to whether or not XP matters in combat even if there's no level difference... for instance in an evenly matched battle between two exactly same units on grassland, would a 7xp unit have any raw combat advantage over a 5xp unit?

Sorry if I'm waaaay off on any of this, I'm still new enough to the game to have not even come close to learning all the intricacies of it yet, so am still learning.

 

[carl corey]

Good point about Charismatic cavs. As I said, we might have to turn Charismatic leaders into a totally different category... And yeah, you do get XPs when you retreat and in that situation the enemy unit doesn't get XPs even though it has "won" the battle in a way. I don't know anything about the rates at which a unit gets XPs, but going from 7 to 8 for a Charismatic cav is clearly very easy no matter the rate.

I do use planes, especially bombers and sometimes fighters on carriers for inter-continental war. I don't even care if I lose one, as a new one is as good as one who's seen twenty wars.

 

[johnny_rico]

My experience has been if a catapult retreats, they get one XP. I'm not certain if that number can jump to 2, say if your catapult retreats from a battle with a next generation unit (catapult vs. grenadier).

Usually a victory yields 2 xp but I'm pretty sure that number goes up if you defeat a far superior unit. I don't know the math behind it but someone out there does.

Yeah, charismatic cavalry. It's the only time I'll hold onto my GG's. And only if the charismatic leader has a mounted UU (Cyrus, Hannibal). Otherwise, I'm a big fan of the medic 3 unit asap and have only recently begun to realize the power of the academies over the instructors. It's kind of funny, since warlords came out, the majority opinion of GG's was that the academies were the last thing you'd want to use them for, however, it does have the best long term yield. It seems like there have been many elements of this game that have followed this pattern on the boards. All decisions in the game seem to have short term, moderate, or long term yield; short term usually being the most attractive initially and what generates early buzz on the forums.

Now, with time and a lot of experimentation, successful strategies are appearing on the board that most folks would have scoffed at months ago. Ah, evolution. Anyway, I digress.

 

[futurehermit]

for cav beeline you beeline for gunpowder and nationalism hoping to trade for music along the way at some point and then take mil trad with liberalism. use GSs up the liberalism path as always. works esp good with russians obviously.

the thing about cav is that they can mop up a continent in no time since they're fast. plus the only thing that really counters them well is rifles and they come later.

 

[thelibra]

Good point about Charismatic cavs. As I said, we might have to turn Charismatic leaders into a totally different category...

Meh, not neccessarily. EVerything (aside from the random chance in battle) boils down to math. Just use the leader traits as a variable in whatever formula you end up with. With a few hours and an excel spreadsheet, you could plug in the leader, and have a table that adjusts the relative starting impact of a unit based off of:

Unit type
Improvements XP bonus
GG Instructor XP bonus
Wonder XP bonus

And then have the chart modify itself for if the leader is CHA.

Another question along these lines though, is if AGG and PROT trait bonus promotions, or for that matter, UU/UB bonus promotions (like the Dun guerilla bonus) count as an actual LEVEL, and if so, what their impact on the next level is.

For instance, say I train a boot in a city with a Dun and a Barracks, in such a fashion that the unit gains one level from the barracks, and the bonus guerilla skill. Is that unit level 2 or level 3 for the purposes of figuring out how many promotions you need to have a West-Point applicable unit? And if it's Level 3 due to that bonus skill, despite only having L2's worth of XP, does it mean that it will get L4 at L3's worth of XP, and so on? Or is the extra promotion just treated as an extra skill?

Sorry, I know this seems slightly off-topic for the thread, but it really does relate. If we can figure out the whole XP thing, it might definitively answer when it's more advantageous to use a GG for Military Instructor rather than Academy or Leadership.

And yeah, you do get XPs when you retreat and in that situation the enemy unit doesn't get XPs even though it has "won" the battle in a way.

Really? Wow. That kinda gives me a whole new reason to consider flanking. I'd really only used it up till now for transport vessels to help keep them from getting sunk, and considered it a neccessary evil for cav units to get the better promotions.

I do use planes, especially bombers and sometimes fighters on carriers for inter-continental war. I don't even care if I lose one, as a new one is as good as one who's seen twenty wars.

Good to know. I wonder why they chose not to give planes xp? Anyone who's ever watched a movie knows that one single ace pilot can change the whole course of a war. And Hollywood doesn't lie. Ever.

My experience has been if a catapult retreats, they get one XP. I'm not certain if that number can jump to 2, say if your catapult retreats from a battle with a next generation unit (catapult vs. grenadier).

Usually a victory yields 2 xp but I'm pretty sure that number goes up if you defeat a far superior unit.

Interesting. This too I did not know. Thank god for this forum.

Otherwise, I'm a big fan of the medic 3 unit asap and have only recently begun to realize the power of the academies over the instructors.

The Medic 3 thing is obvious enough, but why does the Academy have such great power? It's only a 25% increase... I mean, if you can pump out your best and most expensive military unit in under 5 turns, does gaining 1 turn really make up for the benefit of 2 extra XP? I'm curious to hear the case for it, because it seems like the 2xp more is more of an investment in the survival of the unit, which saves you ALL the production time rather than 1/4.

All decisions in the game seem to have short term, moderate, or long term yield; short term usually being the most attractive initially and what generates early buzz on the forums.

I think that'll probably be the case with any great 4X game, but you're right. This game especially has such a great balance between long, medium, and short-term payoffs. For instance, I think there's still technically a way to win without non-specialized cities, but it'd be a very long-term approach.

the thing about cav is that they can mop up a continent in no time since they're fast. plus the only thing that really counters them well is rifles and they come later.

I used to hate the Numidian Cav, but the more I use them, the more I really dig them. I haven't tried the cossacks yet. But they can't sweep too fast because of lack of defensive thingies, right? I guess you can raid a lot though... yeah... Hmmm... I could bring another civ to its knees just by pillaging till they send out a unit, and then kill it before it can get to me, or run away to pillage something else if it's a spear/pikeman.

 

[johnny_rico]

libra,

Bonus promotions from buildings do not contribute to xp's or levels.

Flanking on transports will not save them. Flanking should be reserved for offensive units (it doesn't aid in defense).

I'm pretty sure the academies are a 50% bonus, not 25%. Combining an academy and a military instructor in the same city is great because there's probably already a barracks, stable, or drydock thus looking at two initial promotions. The thing with producing four promotion units in one city and one promotion units in the rest is that you'll harbor the four promo and not really use them because you don't want to lose them. I now prefer to try to make equal xp units in all cities producing military. It certainly provides a lot of flexibility for promotion assignment and yields the dynamic of consistently producing useful units as opposed to 'ubers' and 'fodder'.

Back to the academies, carlcorey I think pointed out, the AI really favors them. What I'm wondering is what happens to a military instructor when you capture an enemy city. I've never captured a city with a military instructor so I'm wondering if they croak when you take the city. Anyway, with AI academies, you can save your GG for instructors in those cities.

 

[HiroHito]

The Medic 3 thing is obvious enough, but why does the Academy have such great power? It's only a 25% increase... I mean, if you can pump out your best and most expensive military unit in under 5 turns, does gaining 1 turn really make up for the benefit of 2 extra XP? I'm curious to hear the case for it, because it seems like the 2xp more is more of an investment in the survival of the unit, which saves you ALL the production time rather than 1/4.

+ 2 xp aint that much of an investement, even if it nets you another lvl I still prefer to churn out units faster, I may be wrong but I prefer having 5 units which are lvl 2 rather than 4 units at lvl 3. In particular since the combat has been more randomized in warlords and the losses went up as well.

And if you are aiming for a set number (such as ur units upkeep limit) and no more, I prefer to be able to replace them 25% faster.

 

[Mr. Civtastic]

why does the Academy have such great power? It's only a 25% increase

It is 50% after the latest patch.

 

[50_dollar_bag]

A couple of things to note about Warlord units is they will keep their accumulated experience once upgraded, so for example you have a cavalry with 30/37 exp and you upgrade normally the exp will drop to 10/37 but keep the active promotions, whereas a warlord cav will not only keep the exp at 30/37 but also be upgraded for free, Zang.

An idea I've had for a warlord unit is a horse archer or chariot and promote along the flanking line to get sentry allowing +1 sight, and then add the warlord and go for medic 3, htat requires a level 7(or level 8?) unit which will take a bit of 'mop-up' exp gathering but would make a very usefull support unit. Hannibal would be the easiest Leader to obtain this with, using a Numidian cav with free flanking I, and charismatic.

I played my first 2.08 domination game recently on a huge pangea marathon speed on Monarch and decided to test out the new Miltary Academy, I'd bagged the Great Wall which along with a lot Sneak attacks (thank you Shaka, Genghis and Mahmed) helped me to generate about 7-8 Great General. Usually I'd just settle them in my HE city but the new Military academy looked fairly promising as i needed troops fast, so I created about 5 Mil academies in various high production cities. Come the 1600s and my first Panzers are coming off the line in about 4 turns(marathon) in my Mil. Acad. cities which ain't too shabby. But I do kind of miss the instant level 4 Units, sometime level 5 units pumping out of my HE city. In retrospect I probably could have done with only a couple, and settle the rest.

And worth mentioning too that under Representation Great Military Instructors will give you 3 like any other settled Great Person.

 

[ruff_hi]

I've only played a few warlords games but in my latest one (lakes map), I am thinking of burning my first two GGs on scouts so that I have highly mobile super medics. Two so that I can have one army going one way around the lake and another going the other way.

The next GGs will be on the +50 military build option.

 

[shadow2k]

I've only played a few warlords games but in my latest one (lakes map), I am thinking of burning my first two GGs on scouts so that I have highly mobile super medics. Two so that I can have one army going one way around the lake and another going the other way.

The next GGs will be on the +50 military build option.

I prefer chariots so I have the option to pillage. I also give them +1 movement, so they can sit in the newly captured city with the injured troops for a couple turns, and still catch up with the main stack. They're also the only unit besides Gunships (or a commando promoted horse) that can move in enemy territory, pillage, and move back to safety in the same turn.