Great lighthouse to build or Not?

[steview]

Hiya

Sorry for picking expert brains again, got what could be a crucial decision to make, and cant decide what to do, hoping for a little advice .

After being practically wiped out by iriquis super-horses on pangea map for my second game (emporer) i switched to archipello, 12 civs and got a good start (English again). Lost quite a few curraghs but found 10 civs and doing better than expected. Got a medium island for myself. Only 1 luxury not many river tiles or bonus tiles, fair bit of tundra etc but not too bad.

I was building the GL and im 1 turn away from it, but just picked up Map making in a trade, now i am in a quandary.

Through trading carefully (for example where AI shares an island i always sell tech to the ones without) and checking every turn ive managed to keep tech parity with the top civs and make a pile of cash.

So GL now seems defunct?. Or will parity get harder to maintain?. Ive hardly researched much just bought and sold / traded techs.

So, given that the AI are quite far apart from each other im considering switching to G Lighthouse, to deny it from the vikings, i investigated their capital and they are 5 turns from it (how when they just picked it up???).

Trouble is. I traded LIT with everyone for techs/gold as i was about to finish the library so they can switch to GL themselves and more importantly i will trigger a golden age while still 25 turns from republic. Ive read this is very very bad indeed to do.

So, do you think denying the lighthouse to the vikings is worth the early Golden Age?. I have 6 sea squares between me and them (no ocean tiles).

I think this means they cant get to me with those berserks untill caravels and it would offer a bit of security?. Plus my extra contacts seem to be giving me a huge advantage atm (i dont think the AI is willing to risk losing galleys/curraghs?) .


Thanks

Steve

 

[drakdan]

I personally would of tried for both. On Archipelago with a few civs not knowing one another the GL would not be AS useful as normal. What's more is the Vikings getting the lighthouse is about the worst case scenario I can think of for it.
I'd say go for the lighthouse just to see how it plays out. You don't really need the library and can probably keep ahead just by trading.

 

[Nate1976]

can you put a save up? or at least a map pic.

not so much for info, i'm justy curious.

I'd say switch.
and build galleys and put 2 settlers in each.
and click explore.

 

[vmxa]

I seldom build the GL (great lighthouse) or the GLB (great lib). To me the Lighthouse comes too soon to care about. I am not going to sent troops out over ocean tiles with the tech. So guess what, about that time the GL goes obsolete.

All I did was burn up shields, this at a very important time. The GLB is marginally useful at Emperor and I would probably ignore it. It may offer more value on island maps as the tech pace is antenuated.

At this point I think I would stick with the GLB andile up cash. I would not worry about the Vikings coming. If they do make some cats/trebs and punish them. Better yet sink the ship at sea.

I think Man O war will handle what ever they send, just pop out a few picks to see them coming.

 

[ellie]

Just to confuse you more stevie the lighthouse is my favourite ancient wonder for emporer pello maps.

I personally would not bother with the GLIB. If the AI civs only have limited contacts then you can keep up with trading imho (vets please correct me if they disagree, just my personal experience). Plus the life of the Glib is pretty short ..1/2 of an era.

On the other hand imho, vikings with lighthouse will be the dominant AI on a pello map, i dont know if they land berserks or use them properely though...if they used them properely that would suck.


Another thing to consider i THINK you can trade luxuries without astronomy via the great lighthouse . One luxury republic on emporer is a bit rough, plus if isolated to galleys you can start world wars safely if you choose, to slow the AI down...to me keeping the AI apart is a huge thing.

Despotic GA..if cities are down yes its not good but i think people over-emphasise the issue myself and they have saved me in early wars before. Be interested to see what others think about that?.

How i would play it.
Build the GL, keep checking for when AI has harbours and trade luxuries.

Try to get monopoly techs, trade like crazy, keep the AI broke as much as possible.

If the AI seems to be running away get them fighting.

Research: Without the GLib i would put research to max as long as the drop in turns to tech is signifigant.


I feel quite embarrassed having a differing view to some of the better players here!. I just have an addiction to keeping ai from meeting as long as poss so might be biased (ive clogged sea routes before now sinking galleys for just this reason)

 

[SimpleMonkey]

I would also give up on the GLib and go for the Lighthouse instead (despite the loss of shields). In my own play I've found that the GLib actually hampers proper gaming. It cripples your trading skills and makes you too passivly dependent on the AI's research at a crucial period in the game. My own rule of thumb is to avoid the GLib (UNLESS I were going to play an always war game at a high level), but to keep an eye out on the civ that does end up getting it. They could easily end up pulling ahead in the game. (I've even seen Ghandi become a dominating fascist war-monger after popping the GLib and using a tech advantage to clear out the Americans from his continent. Weird but true.)

AFIIK, the Vikings don't use the Berserks properly to attack directly from the sea, but instead tend to land them and attack on shore. Good thing, too.

 

[vmxa]

Another thing to consider i THINK you can trade luxuries without astronomy via the great lighthouse . One luxury republic on emporer is a bit rough, plus if isolated to galleys you can start world wars safely if you choose, to slow the AI down...to me keeping the AI apart is a huge thing.

Well you can trade any time you have a route. The lighthouse can make it so you have a route that you otherwise would not have. Remember it is for sea, not ocean.

The problem is, should you be making trades over a very tenative route? IOW if you had no route without the GL and now you do with it, it could be cut so easy. One barb galley and you lost your route. One civ at war with you sits on that tile and you lost your route.

Good bye rep, if you don't care, then go for it. I play like most of the SG games, you are required to try to keep your rep clean.

 

[ellie]

Well you can trade any time you have a route. The lighthouse can make it so you have a route that you otherwise would not have. Remember it is for sea, not ocean.

The problem is, should you be making trades over a very tenative route? IOW if you had no route without the GL and now you do with it, it could be cut so easy. One barb galley and you lost your route. One civ at war with you sits on that tile and you lost your route.

Good bye rep, if you don't care, then go for it. I play like most of the SG games, you are required to try to keep your rep clean.

Yeah good point, hadnt thought of that and rep is important for GPT deals etc

I read the bit about '6 sea tiles'
between stevie and the vikings and figured lighthouse opens that lane up for trade as its safe to traverse as the english with lighthouse.

I guess the caveat is that as the english, holding lighthouse your in a good position to secure chokepoints to keep lanes open. But thats expended
effort.

Still im not sure id enjoy republic on emporer with 1 luxury. Id have gone monarchy personally and killed the nearest island for their luxury asap (baah must..remember im going back to builder style)

Wasted golden age though..one thing i love about english is i can trigger a GA with man-o-war which is often when i want one. Despotic, if you have two shields prod in a square..forget the bonus ;/

 

[vmxa]

I am not so concerned with the one lux as that is going to be a pain regardless. I want to have free hand to war because of the island. If I had three lux, I still have to war a lot.

I need land and I can only get it from others, most likely.

BTW the game steview post, I got attacked by Berserkers from ships. They only sent two, so not a problem. I would worry more if I saw someone making marines. I have been hit by them and had them do bad things to Mechs.

Berserks are easy to kill as they are def 2 like a spearmen. So just attack them first.

 

[steview]

thanks for the input guys really appreciate it, a win on emp on 3rd game is unlikely as i still suck but id like to be still 'in there' by ind age.

i just rechecked the map and one of the 6 narrow 'sea' tiles connecting me to the other civs is ocean


So no luxury trades till navigation i guess ..im running 30% luxuries already god knows if ill manage republic with no Mil Police.

Not even sure vikings will try to traverse the single ocean tile?. I dont intend to fight them anyway im planning to pick on backwards bismark who has a small island below me with wines...ive kept him out of the trading loop deliberately (bad tactic??).

This makes Glib + no research a much stronger choice?. Might get the vikings into a war (on my side!) to slow em down..they have egypt for neighbours and russia seperated from them by coast only.

 

[King Monkeyman]

Off topic sort of but the funny thing with the GLB on oceanic maps is that if you put off meeting other civs as long as possible then you meet at least two you can get a LOT of free techs. I was playing the "always war" game over at 'Poly in the AU and I captured or built the GLB and eliminated everyone I met before the end of the ancient era. Well, I spent a lot of time slowly researching and staying away from Educ. and filling in continent while actively trying not to meet anyone (because then I'd have to declare war!). Long story short, by the time I met anyone else, they were well beyond Educ. I met 2 or 3 civs in one turn and picked up well beyond education before the GLB was declared obsolete! I don't know if this is still part of the rule book, this may have been PTW, but it sure was fun, I was very surprised! I can't say that this is something you can plan for, or that it is even a good idea to plan for, but if you are isolated and have the GLB, well, sometimes magical things can happen!

kmm

 

[gunkulator]

I had everyone's worst nightmare in my last game: Vikings with GL. Worse, I was their closest neighbor and they were on an island all alone. GL gave them the ability to get to my coastal cities with Beserks. Sure you can always retake the city, but there goes 2 pop plus library and univeristy plus whatever other random improvements get destroyed. Hundreds of shields lost with every city lost. That is how the Vikings beat you.

By good fortune, I just happened to select the only civ capable of beating the Vikings at their own game: The Byzantines. Go ahead Ragnar and send over 140 shields worth of Beserks with your 30 shield Galley. My 30 shield Dromons will be waiting...

 

[steview]

I had everyone's worst nightmare in my last game: Vikings with GL. Worse, I was their closest neighbor and they were on an island all alone. GL gave them the ability to get to my coastal cities with Beserks. Sure you can always retake the city, but there goes 2 pop plus library and univeristy plus whatever other random improvements get destroyed. Hundreds of shields lost with every city lost. That is how the Vikings beat you.

By good fortune, I just happened to select the only civ capable of beating the Vikings at their own game: The Byzantines. Go ahead Ragnar and send over 140 shields worth of Beserks with your 30 shield Galley. My 30 shield Dromons will be waiting...

Yeah thats why im paranoid about it too.

But the ai love me atm presumeably because i do so many trades. I just dont know how dramatically this will pump ragnar up power-wise

And if i keep them onside till magnetism i think as england i rule the seas for quite a while.

Im probably over-analyzing, i played monarch game doing loads of moves an hour early on, now i spend 20 minutes trying to work out which tech to sell to who or buy/trade with and trying to work out best squares for each worker. Im still going to max research to republic though i hate despotism and will switch even tho it will prolly mean 50% lux

 

[vmxa]

kmm are you talking about UA208? AFAIK only 3 people turned in victories in that game. Rome was near and sitting on Iron and Iroq on the far side of the land and sitting the only horses.

IIRC we had no other resources on the map. I think I got salt from the English. I still remember that game. I think it was PTW.

 

[King Monkeyman]

kmm are you talking about UA208? AFAIK only 3 people turned in victories in that game. Rome was near and sitting on Iron and Iroq on teh far side of the land and sitting the only horses.

IIRC we had no other resources on the map. I think I got salt from the English. I still remember that game. I think it was PTW.

Yeah, that's the one. I remember quite a bit of teeth-gnashing and hand-wringing associated with it as well. I also remember the map being seriously rigged... Soon after contact with the next continent I was wiped from the face of the earth. I had no time to exploit my technological gains and frankly, I'm surprised I lived to see that far into the game. I think I played it on Monarch, but I should have backed it off to Regent. The pause between wars was sweet, but oh, so short.

kmm

 

[vmxa]

Yes the map was rigged and when Axleman or Dominae put up a map it was a good idea to back off one or two levels from your norm.

The only reason I beat the game was I already knew about the trick he played with the resources. I went straight to Rome and got lucky and killedhe one or two legions they had and captured Rome.

I then started a stream of archers to find Iroq and took them down quickly. After that it was a nightmare of beating off barbs and landing parties, while trying to get to England. The start island was actually a good siz contient.

I remember landing on the southern two landmass where I had to face off two or three civs while two others keep landing on the target area.

I don't remember it all real clear, but I know I had many very close calls and barely took down England and then got the other island.

I think it was a year or more before Moutan Sage came along and posted a win on it.

 

[steview]

I take it these are civ challenges?.

Anyway just got into republic finally!!

Tech situation is

should i be selling these even though the AI is broke?.

In the guides with Glib they always run 0% science
and use the cash for buildings or buying.

But I can run a loss for a while and get techs (fued) at 9 turns, is it possible to keep tech lead on emporer or never really worth trying to outresearch ?.

I Was thinking feud then all out production of med inf/pikes/cats and take on vikings as i think they have no iron!!. Alliance against them to stop trades i guess.

Only problem is its galley transport ;/ but im desperate for luxuries atm

Last time i bother you..promise, im just surprised to still be 'in with a chance'

 

[vmxa]

I take it these are civ challenges?.

Not really a challenge, as it was intended to be a learning experience. The AU is just games proposed to try one thing or another. There were quite a few of them in III.

I have not follwed them in IV, probably too early. They are on Apolyton.

 

[vmxa]

steview

"should i be selling these even though the AI is broke?."

I do not sell them so cheaply, unless they are far behind. I would rather see you give them some cash and then sell the tech to them for your cash back and theirs. Now you end up in the same palce, but the gift makes you a good guy with them. Again not doing it if they are close to me in tech.

"In the guides with Glib they always run 0% science
and use the cash for buildings or buying."

Well I would pile the cash for either war or deficit spending on research, if I could.

"But I can run a loss for a while and get techs (fued) at 9 turns, is it possible to keep tech lead on emporer or never really worth trying to outresearch ?."

You can do it, but you will need to have a good empire and get it growing.

"I Was thinking feud then all out production of med inf/pikes/cats and take on vikings as i think they have no iron!!. Alliance against them to stop trades i guess."

That can be doen, but I prefer horse long before I get to Fued, if the target is on my landmass. I am a big believer in horses for my first war.

"Only problem is its galley transport ;/ but im desperate for luxuries atm"
ok they are not on the same land.

 

[steview]

Well game abandoned i think ;/

Glib about to expire, i havent gained much (1 tech up atm) but being overhauled fast. I have the strongest military of all acording to advisor (plenty of knights as i prebuilt horsemen) but keep losing galleys trying to get them down to the germans (closest and with luxuries). Havent made much cash because i upgraded 60 units en masse. By the time i can get down there i think ill be backwards.

Mistakes made

Cities too widely spaced. I always do it, open up to wide a spacing to grab coast or rivers. Could probably have 6 more cities .

Not building GLIghthouse.

Vikings now out-trading me having found everyone, ai seems to prefer their own to me

Not starting a world war to slow trades / ai...there's Not been a single AI war all game!

aah well learning experience ;p