Great People

[Milosrdenstvi]

Is it an absurd idea to have more functions for Great People, such as actually converting them into people? E.g. a prophet could become a disciple unit, or a sage an archmage...perhaps with some technological prerequisites?

 

[WCH]

Would be redundant with Grigori Adventurer units.

Actually, that's an idea for a major reworking of Grigori... scrap Adventurers altogether, give them a general "great people" bonus, and let them convert great people into hero units of the appropriate type. That way, the control over what kind of adventurers you get is more passive, empire based... if you've built a lot of stuff that gives +1 or +2 to "great sage," you're going to get a lot of arcane heroes.

Engineers -> nonliving units (ships and siege -- a hero cannon? Insanity)
Bards -> recon
Sages -> arcane
Prophets -> divine
Commanders -> melee

Am I forgetting any? They would, of course, be able to use those great people for all the normal purposes too.

 

[Wyrmhero]

Yeah, the Archery line and the Horse line.

Archery line -> Great Engineers
Horse line -> Great Merchants.

And the Prophets are redundant, as the Grigori can't get any divine units except Lunnotar, which need a level 6 unit.

 

[WCH]

Well, Luonataar or however you spell it. And it isn't like Grigori spawn that many Great Prophets anyway.

 

[Wyrmhero]

Well, Luonataar or however you spell it. And it isn't like Grigori spawn that many Great Prophets anyway.

Whoops. I meant Lunnotar, not Immortals. Although, thinking about it, the Grigori aren't going to get any Great Prophets unless you either beeline Sironia's Shrine/Prophecy of Ragnorok, or take over an enemy city with temples in, so maybe a Great Priest going straight to a Lunnotar would be fine, balance-wise.

 

[WCH]

Exactly what I was thinking.

 

[Ecofarm]

Sounds like a nice idea, but current grig heros can become recon, arcane, archery or melee. Let them be horses too and we are at the same place. Further, I see 2 troubles:

1) You would have ALOT of heroes!
2) Noone is going to use an engineer for a unit when it could be a wonder.

 

[westamastaflash]

2) Noone is going to use an engineer for a unit when it could be a wonder.

Unless you're already wondered out.... ;-)

 

[Blackmantle]

Sounds like a nice idea, but current grig heros can become recon, arcane, archery or melee. Let them be horses too and we are at the same place. Further, I see 2 troubles:

1) You would have ALOT of heroes!
2) Noone is going to use an engineer for a unit when it could be a wonder.

Thats not exactely right. They do upgrade to scouts (if that has not been changed of course) which upgrade to horsemen, which upgrade to everything else which is mounted and Grigori. So it looks like we are at the same place...

 

[WCH]

Not the same place. Removing adventurers as a distinct kind of Great Person would encourage empire level specialization and make Grigori just focused on Great People in general, not adventurers in specific. And you wouldn't have to turn them into units, you could still use them for techs, wonders, merchant trade routes, etc. So it'd be different. If anything it'd just make the Sidar look worse in comparison, because they wouldn't be the only ones with easy access to lots of super-specialists.

 

[Mesix]

I like the Grigori Adventurers the way they are. You have to choose whether you want to farm heroes or great people. It seems well inline with the design concept of emphasizing opportunity cost in strategic decisions. Being able to convert any great person into a hero would take away the strategic depth.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I like adventurers as they are in my mod. You can upgrade them or settle them as a Local Legend great specialist. These provide +3 culture, +2 adventurer GPP, and +1 xp. Also, upgraded adventurers (well, any Grigori Heroes) have a "And Now for Something Completely Different" spell that makes them revert back to adventurers, so you can choose a new type of unit and keep the levels/xp/promotions. (Some other changes have been make to reduce abusing some free promotions.)

 

[westamastaflash]

... "And Now for Something Completely Different" spell that makes them revert back to adventurers...

Did you use the python picture?

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I haven't dealt with any artwork, yet.

 

[WCH]

What'd you do to prevent abuse? You said "Some other changes have been make to reduce abusing some free promotions," I'm curious how you accomplished this.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Well, there can still be some abuse.

I removed the channeling promotions from Luonnatar and Grigori Medics. If I didn't, then a Medic or Luonnatar turned Adept would be the equal of an archmage, without any level requirements. Cure Disease and Heal were moved to medic II and III. This also stops those medics who are randomly assigned a religion from having access to their religion's High Priest Spells. (Yes, unmodded, the Grigori are normally the only civ that can have limitless divine casters. You can summon all the Krakens/Balors/Treants you want, have Unyielding Order in every city, etc. In addition to changing the Grigori medic promotions, I made the priest spells require the appropriate state religions and made priests themselves not have state religion prereqs. I also removed channeling from all divine units, creating divine I and II instead, since I considered the Amurite Druids or High Priests Archmage equivalents (through Govannon) to be too powerful.

I removed the inquisitor promotion from Luonnatar, making a unit specific version of the inquisition spell ("Enlighten") in which the state religion of the city's owner is irrelevant. (I'm considering removing command and making the ability to capture units unit-specific too, but that would require a schema change, or have to work though python. I may also try to make the magic immunity unit specific, but, again, this would require a schema change that is still a little beyond my skill.)

I removed free promotions when upgrading arcane units. This is the biggest change. Without this, you can keep upgrading the adventurer to an adept/mage/archamge over and over again and get free promotions every time. The Hero promotion's free XP wouldn't matter much anymore, since you could get combat 1-5, heroic strength/defense 1 &2, mobility, and twincast without spending any xp, and I think that the free promotions even carried over after the spell was used (so you could get all other promotions without spending xp too).

Since they can get free spheres based on mana anyway, I didn't think the free promotions were as important anymore. I was considering increasing the mana requirements for the free promotions because I thought it would be too strong when I add lots of cross-sphere spells, but I think removing the promotions on upgrade is enough. Oh, I also made all spell sphere promotions (not just level 1) require you possess the appropriate mana.


I haven't done anything to stop the adventurers from getting free Spell Spheres, Medic 1-3, Channeling 1-3, Subdue Animal, Subdue Beast, Courage, or Dragon Slaying if they can upgrade to all the proper units. You can still have a War Chariot that can cast all archmage spells and capture multiple dragons in one turn (if you get enough mana, xp, and gold for lots of upgrades).