Greece (and general) strategy help

[crdvis16]

Hello all,

I'm getting back into Civ5/VP after about a year off and finding that I'm a lot worse than I used to be, or the VP patch is simply harder than it once was. I'm hoping to get some pointers and get back onto the right track. For reference, I used to play primarily on Immortal and would win maybe 50% of the time or so I think. I'm now playing on Emperor as that feels about right.

First, I'm currently trying to get a game going as Greece where I go Authority->Statecraft. I think choosing the right sequence of policies in Authority is probably crucial. I think my sequence should be:

Dominance (Science from kills)
Discipline (Culture from garrisons)
Tribute (Gold/Food from city expansion)
Imperium (Free settler)
Honor (Free units from every 8 population)

My reasoning is that early on I'm hunting barbarians so Dominance makes sense and Discipline seems like easy steady Culture. Later, Tribute comes online right around the time I start founding new cities and tile expansion becomes more rapid (Imperium feeds into that). Last, Honor makes sense later on when populations are nearing 16 (since you get the 8 pop unit no matter what). Is this the typical path for an Authority opening?

Next, I imagine waging early war is the right way to play Greece in order to capitalize on their Hoplites. After I've grabbed a couple decent city locations and spam Hoplites (with some other support units as well) I pick a target based on proximity, terrain, and how likely they are to be a pain. I've been able to conqueror a neighbor somewhat successfully in my games. However, from then on things seem to fall apart a bit.

First, should I basically just be at war nearly non-stop in order to feed into the Authority benefits? It seems like any time spent at peace is time where I could be getting bonuses from war either from Authority or the Acropolis. I've noticed that my policy acquisition starts to fall behind a little in mid-game so perhaps this is why.

Next, around mid/late game is where 1 or 2 other civs seem to just pull away to where I can't catch them anymore, especially in terms of technology. They are usually on the other continent so my ability to slow them down is sometimes hampered, and waging war with them when they are 5 or so techs ahead seems impossible (I've tried, it didn't go well...). I also notice I'm often bottom of the barrel in population, even if I have a similar number of cities as other civs. Is it normal to fall behind a little in these areas or is that a red flag? I try to get science from trade routes, working science specialist slots, and prioritizing science buildings but I still seem to fall behind. Are there other sources I'm not paying attention to?

Last, what is the recommendation for city planning? Typically I try to use my capital for wonders and civil servants (and sometimes military), A coastal city for military, 3 high-pop cities to have the guilds, and then the rest are usually cities that are just trying to catch up in infrastructure. Trying to specialize cities too much can lead to unhappiness in neglected areas so I often find myself just building everything.

I can think of a bunch of other questions but that's probably more than enough for now. Any help is appreciated!

 

[CrazyG]

I usually go tribute 2nd, then imperium, I want imperium in play before I settle any cities. Dominance first isn't wrong but I would still go tribute->imperium after that. I don't like the garrison culture as a 3rd policy, I would rather have my limited soldiers out hunting at this point, not sitting in the city. Don't overlook the 50 bonus culture for demanding from city states on tribute, its a very potent bonus this early on and some extra gold can really help to get more hoplites out quickly. I can be worthwhile even if you intend to friend the city state later, as Alexander your influence recovers much faster and hoplites make tribute very easy to get.

The rest of your strategy seems pretty good. One thing to mention is that the science from trade routes is pretty small relative to other science sources, you might want to run internal trade routes for food or production instead. As Greece you definitely want constant war, especially once the acropolis is built. You might fall behind in science but as Greece you should have a culture lead.

You didn't mention religion but if you are getting one consider grabbing a belief for extra science. hope this helps

 

[tu_79]

Policy orders vary a lot depending on what you are facing.

Usually, the food policy is the best starting one. You get gold that is much needed for a huge army, like you really want. An exception can be made if your neighbours are really close, you are very rich and you can confidently start killing non-stop.
Next one is the settler policy. It makes settling and conquering much better. Your settler can be used as a city outpost, a closer base from where to attack your neighbours. If you don't feel confident that you can beat your first enemy (lacking catapults is usually a reason) or if your research is dull (for having too many cities) then you can start with the science on killings.

The happiness policy is only useful once you have your empire running, and much needed then. The extra units and strength is ok for a finisher.

I won't try many wonders in your capital. Statue of Zeus, perhaps. You want to take your neighbours wonders instead. Don't try to found a religion, but if it happens, go for Zealotry. Go for Science if your foes are far away. Capture someone else's Holy City instead.

I like to place my melee focused city (with Alhambra and the military national wonders) near a military city state, so the units they gift come with extra promotions. Another city for ranged, and a dedicated coastal for ships. But that's a thumb rule, I may need to change priorities.

By the way, tactical AI has improved a lot (naval, simultaneous attacks), and strategical AI now focuses more on religion and the result is amazing. Many players, myself included, had to lower difficulty.

 

[crdvis16]

I usually go tribute 2nd, then imperium, I want imperium in play before I settle any cities. Dominance first isn't wrong but I would still go tribute->imperium after that. I don't like the garrison culture as a 3rd policy, I would rather have my limited soldiers out hunting at this point, not sitting in the city. Don't overlook the 50 bonus culture for demanding from city states on tribute, its a very potent bonus this early on and some extra gold can really help to get more hoplites out quickly. I can be worthwhile even if you intend to friend the city state later, as Alexander your influence recovers much faster and hoplites make tribute very easy to get.

The rest of your strategy seems pretty good. One thing to mention is that the science from trade routes is pretty small relative to other science sources, you might want to run internal trade routes for food or production instead. As Greece you definitely want constant war, especially once the acropolis is built. You might fall behind in science but as Greece you should have a culture lead.

You didn't mention religion but if you are getting one consider grabbing a belief for extra science. hope this helps

Ok, so maybe I was putting too much emphasis on barbarian hunting as my priority early on with Dominance when maybe I should have focused more on getting my initial cities planted with Tribute->Imperium and gearing up for war. And I think you're right that sitting units in garrison so early on is probably not ideal, so waiting on Discipline is probably better.

I did do some bullying of city states in my last game and liked it, especially since Alexander recovers from the penalty faster. I'll plan to make that part of my strategy. I also would end up agreeing to peace with my neighbors when it became clear I wasn't going to be able to continue conquering cities but perhaps what I should have done is just stay at war in order to continue to kill off units.

I haven't really tried for a religion with Greece, usually just grab a pantheon and then adopt someone else's religion for the follower bonuses.

 

[crdvis16]

Policy orders vary a lot depending on what you are facing.

Usually, the food policy is the best starting one. You get gold that is much needed for a huge army, like you really want. An exception can be made if your neighbours are really close, you are very rich and you can confidently start killing non-stop.
Next one is the settler policy. It makes settling and conquering much better. Your settler can be used as a city outpost, a closer base from where to attack your neighbours. If you don't feel confident that you can beat your first enemy (lacking catapults is usually a reason) or if your research is dull (for having too many cities) then you can start with the science on killings.

The happiness policy is only useful once you have your empire running, and much needed then. The extra units and strength is ok for a finisher.

I won't try many wonders in your capital. Statue of Zeus, perhaps. You want to take your neighbours wonders instead. Don't try to found a religion, but if it happens, go for Zealotry. Go for Science if your foes are far away. Capture someone else's Holy City instead.

I like to place my melee focused city (with Alhambra and the military national wonders) near a military city state, so the units they gift come with extra promotions. Another city for ranged, and a dedicated coastal for ships. But that's a thumb rule, I may need to change priorities.

By the way, tactical AI has improved a lot (naval, simultaneous attacks), and strategical AI now focuses more on religion and the result is amazing. Many players, myself included, had to lower difficulty.

I think you're right about the wonders. Taking them from neighbors would be easier. I did grab statue of Zeus in my last game, and nearly grabbed Terracotta in the game before (got beat to it with 2 turns left...). And yeah, I haven't pushed for religion and just assumed I'd adopt or steal a neighbor's.

Interesting idea about placing a military producing city near a military city state for unit promotions. Didn't realize the city next to which they spawn would give bonuses- interesting.

 

[Strigvir]

Why do you think Authority+Statecraft is a good combo? War is about money and in case of Greece you don't need to wage much offensives to benefit from UB. Progress+Statecraft+Imperialism will be pretty good. And if you are successful enough, put point in Industry later.

 

[CrazyG]

Why do you think Authority+Statecraft is a good combo? War is about money and in case of Greece you don't need to wage much offensives to benefit from UB. Progress+Statecraft+Imperialism will be pretty good. And if you are successful enough, put point in Industry later.

What is wrong with Authority->Statecraft? I use it often, the AI loves to fight over city states, its great to have Authority's bonuses when that happens

 

[Strigvir]

It doesn't synergize at all. UB requires to spam as much cities as possible, while Authority bonus on kill falls off with more cities.

 

[crdvis16]

I figure Authority+Statecraft just synergizes well with Greece's package.

Greece's UA/UU/UB all push you toward waging war. The Acropolis most of all encourages killing units, so why not stack the bonuses from Authority for killing units on top of that? If I'm going to be waging war and presumably conquering cities then Authority has bonuses for that too. If a civ like Greece would be better off going Progress then there probably aren't very many civs that should choose Authority (other than the extreme warmongers I guess?).

Statecraft seems natural for Greece as well. If you're in war a lot then you might be using trade routes to CSs, so you may as well get influence per turn for those trade routes. As a warmonger you'll need to defend yourself from the world congress, so allying CSs would also be a good idea, on top of the combat bonuses Greece gets for doing so.

It seems like it should work OK. I assume the problems in my games have more to do with me playing poorly than Authority being a weak tree.

 

[tu_79]

Progress is usually better in the long run, but you need to be able to expand without too much fighting until middle ages. For the rest, Authority is better since you can fight better earlier. You could look for synergies with your civ, but ultimately the question is how much you are going to fight that early.

 

[CrazyG]

It doesn't synergize at all. UB requires to spam as much cities as possible, while Authority bonus on kill falls off with more cities.

You should offer some more explanation because what you have posted doesn't make sense. You use sarcasm a lot and I'm not sure if you meant to above

You can puppet a bunch of cities, keep your culture costs low, puppet governors give unique buildings a very high priority. The extra healing, supply, and combat strength from Authority are really valuable long term assets (I strongly disagree with the opinion some have of progress always being better long term). If he is devoting early resources to hoplites and killing or tribute authority will start much stronger, the production in every city is just amazing authority is a very powerful tree

I'm not saying progress greece is wrong by any means, nor is authority greece necessarily better, they are both viable ways to play the game with their own advantages

 

[crdvis16]

Just in case anyone else is interested in Greece, I finally am in a game where I'm doing well with them having gone Authority -> Statecraft. The lessons I applied from earlier games were:

1) Always be at war. The only time I accept peace is when my enemy is ready for capitulation or I'm fighting a war with someone else. As long as the war is going well war weariness doesn't hurt too bad. The science and culture gained from killing units or taking cities will help keep you from falling behind runaways. I conquered my nearest neighbor (Spain) who in many cases forward settled on me, and then Russia. Now that my continent is under control I'm going after those on the far continent, especially those that have conquered CSs that I can now liberate (Japan and Mongolia).

2) Pay extra attention to economics. Being at war all the time requires lots of military (which costs lost of GPT) and can lead to losing trade routes and trading partners. So it might be extra necessary to use trade routes that are safer (maybe nearby CSs, especially when using statecraft), get economic technologies sooner (especially building villages), and working merchant specialist slots for the GPT and great merchants. A bunch of my earlier games would become futile when I let my empire's economics fall apart.

3) Greece gets natural tourism from the Acropolis, especially when you have a lot of cities from conquering. You can afford to burn great artists/writers for their culture/golden ages rather than works of art (assuming you are going for diplo/domination victory). This helps with economics and staying ahead in culture while still having a decent tourism/culture defense.

 

[randomnub]

1) Always be at war.

Been at war since silly Harald came knocking at ~T30 with a bunch of warriors and archers against my fresh hoplites, if the conquest spree doesn't stop the supply cap is going to naturally fix the scary war weariness. Massed hoplites could defend and counter attack against no-UU pikemens and even longswordmen.

For the first 100 turns or so I always demanded tribute for fat yelds, just devoting a couple of hoplites to go gain the ''nearby military'' boni while the rest of the army was busy in enemy territory. A couple of times heavy tribute was available but I went with the gold one to prevent a deficit. After statecraft, and when the army is busy fighting an enemy you can't streamroll with hoplites alone anymore, it's when Alex started to act nice. Excluding the barrier reef UR.

Not a single wonder until Terracotta Army, monument/shrine/(rax)/later acropolis and units spam from satellites until the cap is reached, even 2-3 units above and play a bit suicidal in order to shave some turns.

That's from a couple of patches ago (it's been 1 month I can't finish a game due to me being slow and hotfixes coming quick, but not really complaining ), nowadays tribute is lil harder to get for anybody but greece/persie/celts that don't really feel the difference I think

 

[crdvis16]

Yeah, hoplites really are quite tough

 

[ElliotS]

Just a note that working border-blob in there is really, really good, much like Denmark. Authority's gold and food on border-growth, god of expanse's 25% more border growth, and the culture from Acropolis means you'll be getting TONS of food and gold from tribute.

You can also consider enhancing it with Tradition's border growth policy and/or Angkor Wat, but honestly just remember that God of Expanse + Authority is really good.