Grudge warfare between two CS allies

[Lochlann]

Not sure exactly what's going on with this, but I approve, despite the annoyance factor.

Two of my city-state allies are next-door neighbors, with hardly any neutral territory between them. Throughout my current game, they've had a history of bickering: putting out bully quests on the other, engaging in border skirmishes, etc. It's now late in the game and I have become allies with both of them, which seems to have calmed them down...until I go to war. Whenever I'm at war, they march their troops right into each other's terrain and start fighting again, despite both being allied with me, and even when their mutual enemy--my opponent in the war--is within reasonable marching distance. This usually results in one or more of their luxury improvements getting razed, which is how I'm alerted to the resumption of their bickering. (I get a warning about the luxury being unavailable, I check on the CSes, and yep, sure enough they're at it again.)

Has anyone else encountered this? It's annoying, but I like it. The idea of these two city-states having personalities of their own, hating each other and using the confusion of inter-civ warfare to start taking pot-shots at each other...that's just cool.

 

[joelzhl]

I had one game where a city state capture another city state. Both of them were my allies. The victor ended up keeping the new city and gave me the extra resource.

 

[redwings1340]

Er, I've never seen anything like that. It's cool though, I hope to see it happen to me sometime.

 

[PhilBowles]

Usually that happens because peace deals don't take account of CSes - so, if a civ declares war on another, its CS allies declare war on the enemy's CS allies, but when peace is declared between major civs it doesn't lead to peace between CSes at war. Since CSes rarely venture far from their territory, this is only generally noticeable with neighbours.

CSes seem to me to have much less personality than in vanilla, which is a shame - in vanilla too they could often be highly aggressive, attack well outside their borders, and capture cities. The closest I've seen in BNW is Kathmandu sending a couple of units over a narrow strait to support my attack on Damascus, however they then went away without doing anything.

I had one game where a city state capture another city state. Both of them were my allies. The victor ended up keeping the new city and gave me the extra resource.

I used to have this quite a lot in vanilla. The most successful CS I ever saw was Sydney in one vanilla game, which ended up with three cities - itself, another CS, and Mecca (I'd almost taken the city but it had a few health left, and my ally Sydney marched in on its turn), as well as capturing and razing another.

 

[kurtkage]

Usually that happens because peace deals don't take account of CSes

This is why there was a change made to peace deals and they now add All CS from both sides as make peace, to the deal. (Remember the days when you would click on peace and have to click Make Peace with every freaking city state in your list if you didn't want to trust them to do it?)

The thing is that if you clear the list off and don't offer to make peace with an enemies allied CS, your allied CS won't make peace with them either. Then the next turn or whatever you manually click make peace yourself, but your CS doesn't
Then a century later you ally them both, but they are still at war lol.

We need a CS diplo option to ask CS1 to make peace with CS2 as long as neither are at war with eithers Ally.

 

[NameUndisclosed]

This once happened during a domination game I played. I attacked Sweden while it was allied with Manila and I was allied with Bucharest. I later wiped out the Swedes and allied with Manila for my last war against Babylon. Until I later wiped out Manila after our alliance wore off, Bucharest and Manila were at war.

 

[Anarchist]

Yeah, I've seen this when I ally with a CS when it was previously allied with another Civ at war with the ally of the other CS. Phew! Let me explain that:

CS A is allied with Civ 1.
CS B is allied with Civ 2.
Civ 2 is at war with Civ2, therefore CS A is at war with CS B.
I ally with CS A, but obviously CS A does not declare peace with either Civ 1 or CS B.
Even after all hostilities are over, CS A is still at war with CS B. This occurred to me even after I had allied with CS B as well, so two of my CS allies are hurling insults and rock at each other. Fun!

 

[PhilBowles]

This is why there was a change made to peace deals and they now add All CS from both sides as make peace, to the deal. (Remember the days when you would click on peace and have to click Make Peace with every freaking city state in your list if you didn't want to trust them to do it?)

That means the CSes on your side make peace with the enemy civ, and the CSes on the enemy side make peace with you. The CSes themselves don't make peace with one another, because there's nothing in the game code that lets them do that - you can't ask a CS to make peace with another CS. In my last full game Samarkand and Mogadishu were at war for the whole game after I made peace with both Samarkand and their Arabian ally, even after multiple changes of alliance on Samarkand's part (eventually with me allying both). Notice you don't get a notification "City States have made peace with [list of city-states]" when you get the notification of peace between the civs.

We need a CS diplo option to ask CS1 to make peace with CS2 as long as neither are at war with eithers Ally.

Yes.

 

[Lochlann]

Usually that happens because peace deals don't take account of CSes - so, if a civ declares war on another, its CS allies declare war on the enemy's CS allies, but when peace is declared between major civs it doesn't lead to peace between CSes at war. Since CSes rarely venture far from their territory, this is only generally noticeable with neighbours.

Ah, that makes sense, yes. Bah -- I still prefer my romanticized explanation.

CSes seem to me to have much less personality than in vanilla, which is a shame - in vanilla too they could often be highly aggressive, attack well outside their borders, and capture cities.

Agreed. They are much more passive and blasé than in vanilla. Pity.

 

[pthieu1986]

they just fight for your fun actually, never have i seen a CS destroyed by another one.

 

[Bad Wolf]

This happened to me in my last game, Kiev and Antwerp were at war for most of the game despite often being allied to the same civ. Thought it was kind of cool, though it does seem like a glitch.

I have seen CS conquer other CS. Love it when that happens.

 

[mikeville]

I've never seen a CS conquer another CS! That's cool! Did they raze the city? I ask because the only times I saw a CS actually have military success was in GnK, and they razed all the cities they took... they never kept them. They were another Civ's cities, though, not other CSs.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

CSs should make peace when they are allied to the same major civ. (or at least they should be an a 'forced peace' ie thay can't attack each other's units or pillage each others territory when they are allied to the same player.. which would allow the war to break out in full when the alliance faded.)

Its fun and intereating, but can be annoying if one of your allies pillages your only copy of a luxury you are getting from another ally.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

just let the game run a while and gift each of them gdrs and tanks and things. it's fun.