Hammers, hammers, hammers...

[andre.human@gma]

Hi

I have been reading Obsolete's threads with great interest and hell man..Obsolete, I must congratulate you dude! I just LOVE it the way you throw "conventional wisdom" out the window. Maybe that "wisdom" wasn't so wise afterall, eh?

I also like how most of the acknowledged "experts" in this game duly acknowledge your achievements. As for the odd minions who still critisize, well all I can say is they are a dime a dozen. They're everywhere and they are sad and most importantly, they dont matter.

Anyway, to get to the point. I have been trying to follow Obsolete's methods by plaing Egypt, getting the GW, Henge and Oracle but I NEVR get the amount of hammers in my capital that he gets. Not even close. Bear in mind that I am a rubbish player. I play on Noble and still lose half the time.

I need a bit of guidance - what buildings/civics/other factors provide hammer modifiers that turn your main production city into a production "monster"? I do settle Great Priests and Great Scientists and that seems to work ok in the beginning. But later in the game, my production never gets over 80 or 90. Certainly not the 600, 700, 900 hammers I see on the screenies in Obsolete's games.

Please guys, what am I doing wrong or not doing? A walkthrough on what to build initially and a summary of what to build later and which techs to go for would be appreciated.

I dont play much but I do enjoy the game. I have the early warring thing on Pangea maps and an eventual domination victory pretty much down pat on Noble, but Obsoletes super cities seem like a ot more fun.

Thanks and keep up the good work.

A.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Forges, factories, power plants/3 gorges dam, he always puts Iron Works in his capital too. You also get a bonus if you are building a wonder and are industrious (which shows up in screenshots), have a resource which aids the production of what you are building (e.g. stone doubles hammers for pyramids).

The really big numbers are when he is building a spaceship part in the ironworks city with the space elevator and a laboratory, with aluminium. All the bonuses stack up in that case. Overflow also gets factored into the first turn of a build.

Bear in mind if you try obsolete's strategy you need to manage diplomacy very carefully and know whether AI neighbours are likely to attack you. Diplomacy is something you tend not to need on lower levels if you have a tech lead and some troops to deal with any hassle.

He beelines for cavalry before any opponent has it and then goes conquering cities quickly before they have a chance to react. Which needs careful tech pathing to get it early enough to be useful. Don't bother with techs not on the way to that goal at all.

Bear in mind he also builds the internet to catch up on all the late game techs as well. There's not much room for maneuver in this strategy (and it has been nerfed in BtS anyway).

 

[andre.human@gma]

Thanks for the input, PS. But why the wonder chasing then? I can understand GW (for a G Eng.) Henge (for G Priets) and Oracle (for the free tech). Are there any other wonders that specifically enhance production and/or science output?

A

 

[ParadigmShifter]

He always gets the pyramids (representation for +3 beakers per specialist and all settled great people - including great generals), the great library (which is fantastic always) for science bonuses.

Angkor Wat gives +1 production for priest specialists empire-wide (making them better than enginner specialists), but not settled great prophets (no difference). When that goes obsolete he runs max engineers in the capital if possible I believe (ironworks gives another 3 and factories enable 2, forge allows 1). Temple of Artemis gives you a free priest specialist (goes well with Angkor Wat obviously) and allows another 3 in the city. EDIT: And the Ironworks of course, the best production increaser, but I already mentioned that one.

I take it you are running a specialist economy when you try this to maximise production of great prophets/great scientists/great engineers? Don't just rely on the GP from wonders alone. That's why lots of food is important (fresh water too for +2 health).

 

[andre.human@gma]

Thanks again PS. That was very helpful! Ah yes, the Great Library. For some reason I always miss it. Do you need libraries in 6 cities before you can build it? It never seems to be available for me to build...?

But as I understand it, you can only do 2 World Wonders per city, right? And unlimited ordinary wonders? So you need to leave space in your main production city for the important world wonders, like Space Elevator. But what about the Piramyds and and GW. They are World wonders, arent they? So if they are there, that's it... no more, right? And Oracle as well?

A

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Nope, for great library you need literature, which you need polytheism for, that's what people tend to forget about when going for that tech. You need a library in the city you build it as well (EDIT: but not in any others, if you don't want).

No, you can have as many World Wonders per city as you like. It's National Wonders that are limited to 2 (and the palace doesn't count as one of them, in case you were wondering).

 

[andre.human@gma]

Ah right. I had it the wrong way round!

Thanks again PS. This little exchange has helped me more than months of playing and not really knowing what I'm doing. I am also having a good look at the manual (wonder lists, requirements etc) and a much bigger (and clearer) picture is emerging.

Have a fantastic day!

A.

 

[Cam_H]

Further to ParadigmShifter's post above;

National Wonders are available to every nation, and are arguably as powerful as many (if not most) of the World Wonders. Refer to CivFanatics' Civilization IV: Wonders & Projects section that outlines World Wonders (a.k.a. Great Wonders) vs. National Wonders vs. Projects. Which two National Wonders work best where is often a debatable point!

On the initial point; Obsolete's games - as I understand it - have been specifically run to demonstrate that you don't need to lightbulb technologies and rely on Cottages in order to win on higher levels. These two 'tactics', Obsolete felt, were bandied around too commonly as necessary to play well at the moderate to higher levels, so these games were presented to debunk these assertions. These threads are not presented as 'how tos' for newer players, and Obsolete has regularly included a 'disclaimer' to that effect. Enjoy them as very interesting alternative approaches, but I would not recommend them as 'the way to go' if you're a player struggling on Noble or Prince level - they're not what they were designed for.

Best of luck!

 

[The Bowman]

No, it is two NATIONAL WONDERS per city, but you can build as many world wonders as you want. You said you are playing noble level, so you should be able to use any economy you want and win eventually, but you should keep in mind that the things you see in walkthroughs are using many things 'under the hood' so to speak. It is not easy winning games on certain levels as it may appear to be.

Paradig mentioned a very good one about overflow. I don't think Obsolete can possibly get 1K base hammers a turn, even with all the prophets and engineers popping out. But if he can get up to 500, after including his civics, specialists (running & absorbed), tile improvements, and all the modifiers that go with it, he can exploit an over-flow to double this value yet again.

Sometimes though the OF can cause detrimental effects, but that is getting into a more advanced topic where even I get lost in trying to understand it.

 

[The Bowman]

Damn, every time I try to answere someone, other people beat me to the punch-line.

It's like they said.

 

[andre.human@gma]

Cam H: Thanks for your comments. I appreciate what you say and I certainly dont think that I am a candidate for winning on emp level any time soon - with or without Obsolete's strategies! What I like about the walkthroughs is as you said; they debunk certain "not-negotiable necessities". Thats great! That's progress - in this game as well as in real life. But I do like the idea of a super production city. Its my style of play and I will certainly try and implement these principles on Noble and Prince levels. ( I dont think that I will progress much beyond these levels - way too busy in a law practice and a teenage daughter who thinks its a bit weird that her father plays Civ and a spouse...- well that's another story alltogether...)

And in any event, trying to work out which techs to research and which to leave alone in order to lightbulb philosophy or nationalism whatever just seems like too much hard work to me. Obs showed me that I can do something with those priests which is just as good, if not better, than lightbulbing and that's great!

Bowman: Thanks for your input as well.

A

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Well we've known for ages that cottages aren't necessary to win haven't we? Specialists (especially with pyramids) are much quicker getting to liberalism but tend to fizzle out a bit after that (hence obsolete building the internet to catch up).

Lightbulbing, I always do it if it is a good tech (philosophy, education or liberalism [needs careful choice of techs so you can lightbulb it directly though]).

I think obsoletes big difference is the build as many wonders as possible strategy (which does depend on some luck, but if it pays off is a big win, but as I said requires extremely careful management of diplomatic relations with such a low power rating). I'm not good enough at diplomacy or knowing the AI personalities to pull it off myself. Losing a key wonder like pyramids is a big blow too.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Philosophy is easy to lightbulb, you just need code of laws (or drama maybe? I always go the code of laws route) and meditation I think. I always use my first or second GS on this (the other goes on an academy).

Other key GS lightbulbs are:

Once you get civil service you can lightbulb paper then education (needs 2 to lightbulb all of it but you can lightbulb it once and finish off the rest). Paper is cheap though, so I often don't bother unless I have a GS waiting around.

To lightbulb liberalism, you need Calendar, Metal Casting, Compass and Education. The first 3 are easily picked up in trades (don't trade key techs on the way to liberalism if it is a close race). Don't get machinery though. That takes a bit of nerve since you can't get macemen or engineering without it (so no 3 movement on roads and no pikes to defend against knights). EDIT: I rarely lightbulb liberalism because of this. I just research it the normal way.

Since lightbulbing is so easy and convenient I do it while getting other useful stuff from other parts of the tech tree (guilds, banking, etc.), and not researching the lightbulbable techs much at all, if I am likely to get great scientists (and I build the great library, so I am).

Other techs worth lightbulbing are Printing Press (if you have cottages, also on the way to rifles and modern military), Chemistry (grenadiers), Steel and Scientific Method (obsolete's Great Library, boo), Electricity, Physics, Biology. These expensive techs can't be fully lightbulbed though and GS's are more and more infrequent so they start to lose their appeal, save for golden ages or settle them (or build another academy).

I was reading some of aelf's older walkthroughs and he used the unusual tactic of partially lightbulbing a tech so that the AI was more likely to give him a good deal for that tech in a trade.

 

[The Bowman]

Obs showed me that I can do something with those priests which is just as good, if not better, than lightbulbing and that's great!

Do be very careful with that. Obsolete is known as a crazy. He's done things like build AW just to run a billion priests, even though 99% of the rest of us would think no one would possibly even think of such a terrible thing. Since everyone hates priests, (until now maybe).

But since most people still hate priests, that should tell you something about them in principal. That means, make sure you understand WHY you are deviating from the norm, and what you plan to gain from it. Something that is new, isn't always right. And something that has been around for generations, isn't always the best either, but in the long run usually the old ways are the best. Just make sure you know where you are going.

And then we have Dave who is a crazy as well, cottaging precious resource tiles and production hills. I used to think only the automated workers were that bad, but I have to accept the fact that maybe he knows something we don't.

 

[andre.human@gma]

Everytime I get a GS, I check what I can lightbulb and its always some crap that I can get in 4 turns anyway lol. That's why I am happy to know that lightbulbing is not the be all and end all of teching. And settled priests give you hammers and commerce (I think)... I usually win the race to Lib anyway on Noble so no real need to lightbulb...

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Priests are pretty good, especially with the Angkor Wat built. Settled Prophets are great (5 gold are they?), but if you plan on lightbulbing most of the way to liberalism (otherwise you'd better build the great Library and the Pyramids, or be very focused on your tech path and not have much defence due to missing out on key techs, or give up on liberalism route), you need scientists at some point.

I'm not overly keen on shrines especially for religions I found myself and that I don't spread around too much, they don't give much cash. Conquering a shrine of a popular religion is pretty good though.

EDIT: 4 turns sounds pretty quick for a lightbulbable tech unless you are playing on quick speed (in which case settling is probably a better plan then), or are part way through researching it anyway (which if you know which techs are easily lightbulbable - see my above post - you shouldn't bother starting to research anyway if a GS is on the way, get something more useful that you can trade or use for building units).

I hardly ever lightbulb with priests. Theology is OK I suppose if you are going to war but since I run lots of specialists I prefer pacifism anyway, or don't express a state religion preference anyway (important at Monarch and above to stop people hating you).

EDIT2: Otherwise, you can save the great person for the 4 turns while you research it and then see what they want to lightbulb next. There's no rule that says you have to use GP straightaway.

 

[Cam_H]

Andre,

You don't have to use the Great People on the turn you get them if considering lightbulbing - you can hold them back for better options!

 

[andre.human@gma]

Bowman: He might be crazy but surely you must concede that his crazy ideas actually work on higher levels? Sure you have to be careful and balance your diplomacy very well, as PS points out but its the same for everyone. He knows the game well and he knows what he can get away with.

I am not for one moment saying that what he is doing is "the best" way of winning. I have a feeling that a combination of his ideas (settling priests and wonder grabbing) and the conventional ways of playing would probably be the way to go if you are looking for an all out optimum strategy to win. The main thing for me is that he has demonstrated that those "useless" priests are not so useless after all.

A

 

[The Bowman]

A GP should give 5 gold and 2 hammers. And no the AW doens't affect the absorb the prophets, only the priests.

The AW did increase in power recently though. It used to only affect the city it was built in, but now it has a global effect. Or at least for each city on your continent. That probably doesn't change too much though, except if you pull down the SoL, or run the Merchantilism civic, then you can benefit all the priests in the other cities. But I'm sure 99% of players would prefer to go running free scientists instead.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

I suspect even obsolete quits a few games when it all goes pear-shaped, he just doesn't post about those ones

You can also play alot quicker games using his tactic, which is nice, you haven't got loads of cities to check all the time and loads of units to move around, which makes a change (for me). As Wang Kon says - your life may be short but full of excitement with that strategy. And the diplomacy thing is a lot harder to pull off than remembering a few lightbulbable techs and building a few cottages here and there. My 2p anyway.