Help me decide on wich tribe to use!

[Ernesto Guevara]

Hi there! I´m quite new on this forum, but I´m an allout Civ II maniac with an addiction for making scenarios.
So what seems to be my problem then? Well, since I like historical scenarios above all, i´ve gone ahead trying to make a scn about Europe at the time of the Vikings (how unique!

).
This has of course been done a couple of hundred times before, but none of them has in my opinion given a realistic picture of neither Europe at this time, nor the Vikings. So I´m giving it a shot!
So, lets not slip away from the point. My problem. Its like this: I´ve chosen six of the tribes I want to have in the scn. These are: Vikings, Anglo-Saxons, Saracens, Franks, Byzantines, Independents and...well. I think it stands between a civ representing all of the slavic tribes in eastern Europe, and one representing the East Frankish(soon to be Holy Roman) Empire, that pops up around 832 with the dividing of the Frankish Empire. It becomes Holy Roman Empire around 1000, but they would have to be there from the start I guess. A bit of slaughter on history, but what can you do? Maybe you could help me there too?
So there you go, wich one am I to choose? Could everyone use all there brain capacity and help me out on this one. And I promise that this scen will be of the kind that you don´t forget!

Thanks!

 

[Morten Blaabjerg]

I think you should go for a different angle, than just covering all of Europe at the time, which as you say, has been done quite a few times. (not that something is wrong with that, it's just more of the same, if it doesn't have your very unique touches. What is it that you think are wrong with the existing viking scens? And what will be unique about yours?

-Personally I would be interested in seeing a good scen about the viking eastern expansion, the founding of the Rus, journeys down the rivers, with a lot of challenges in the way. Perhaps a quest to reach Byzantium.
But there could be other interesting subjects. Or what about a grand viking battle on a smaller scale, "The Taking of Gudmundssund" or something with a similar title? I think that'd be really great!

 

[Ernesto Guevara]

I´m happy that your interested in the eastern viking routes! I thought everyone just wanted plunder and looting in the west. Sure, we all know that western Europe was the Danish and Norwegian sphere of interest, but it is nonetheless nice when someone mention the Swedish vikings. I will of course incorporate this into my scenario.

I´ll probably stick with my original idea with all of Europe, and for a lot of reasons. To begin with, I found that this is, in my opinion, one of the most interesting and exciting periods in the history of Europe, not only cause of the vikings. There is great turmoil and shifting of power and great empires like the Byzantines and Saracens surrounds and interferes. Not to mention the empire of Charlemagne. This period is simply filled with wonderful stuff to put in a scenario.

Also this is supposed to be a scn where the viking player is able to travel very far and discovering things that vikings never did (but probably would have, given more time). The player will be able to choose whether he wants to just plunder, kill, burn and loot, (wich other viking scns are usually all about) or use the great fortunes that come with trading. Perhaps he wants to build an empire. The options will be numerous, but in the end this scn is all about having fun. There will be no objectives or victory points to achieve, its all about experiencing what europe may have been like at this time, seen from the viking perspective of course. The player will be given a civ with great potential, what he does with it is up to him/her.

What I don´t like about other viking scns I´ve played is that they all suffer from quite the same problem. Lack of knowledge both considering the vikings and the rest of Europe. Also the vikings are always depicted as brutal plunderers and berserks that destroys everything in their path. I want to get around that notion and show that there was more to the vikings than only looting. I want to give a more serious picture, one that a historian might like, but still fun to play. What about for example exploring, trading, internal affairs, peaceful negotiation, link between east and west, settling in far away lands? Thats some of the things I want to build my scn from.
The graphics will be quite good also, but thats only a bonus.

I would really like to continue this discussion with you, and also your ideas about internal viking affairs. Clashes between viking kings and such. How about a scn dealing with the infamous Jomsvikings?

 

[Morten Blaabjerg]

...the vikings are always depicted as brutal plunderers and berserks that destroys everything in their path.

Including mine...!

But then again, this is what I wanted to achieve. What strikes me, is the horror and terror by which the viking raids are portrayed in the christian journals. Tremendous omens, thunder, dragons flying around etc. And complete destruction of the rich monasteries around Europe. -This is something quite different from common warfare, not because raiding activities didn't always follow in the wake of wars, but because it came unexpectedly, and, of course, because the vikings wasn't christian. So they didn't feel the need to respect the holiness of christian gold, as the christians did...

I think this difference in mentality has been downtoned during the last 20-30 years, saying that they were not so violent etc, in order to focus on viking exploration, trade etc. Which was also important. But not nearly as important as the violent clash with christianity, which eventually brought about christian nordic monarchies. -But even though the vikings became christians, there were still (and probably still is) a legacy of conduct from tribal law and customs, which has great influence on nordic affairs, even today.

I think the key to all this is nordic geography. There's a lot of sea, lakes, rivers and islands, with little arable land. This provoked great achievements in the development of shipbuilding, but also made it quite difficult to control Scandinavia. So it was hard for one tribal king to dominate others, because you could very swiftly go up another river and settle someplace else. You didn't have to comply with tyrannical rulers, like might have been the case for mainland european peasants. Popular support was important, and the popular king would be the one who could bring most wealth to his people. These things combined, made the raids in western Europe possible. And to some extent also the eastern expansions. The vikings were used to defend themselves against, as well as attack rival viking tribes in Scandinavia. So events in Anglo-Saxon England, France and the east, can very much be seen as the prolonged activities of internal nordic rivalries, started long before 793 (Lindisfarne). In my opinion, this is a very important angle.

Well, I tried to convey this theme in my scen, but I think only halfway succeeded. It's great entertainment still, especially multiplayer, but extremely (too much) difficult playing the other european tribes....

Well, feel free to send me a mail sometime. I'll be happy to help where I can. And if you want to use anything from the scen, just go ahead and grab it. It's quite tough work, so you might be able to snatch a thing or two.

A scen evolving around the legendary Jomsvikings... -Sounds quite exciting to me. -I have been thinking about making something around a similar angle, but this should be a grand epic battle/quest scenario. But I really don't have the time for it. IT'S SO GOD DAMN HARD WORK! (as you might hear in this, I'm over the head in another project right now (the Africa scen), and I want to finish it sometime soon, so I CAN DO SOMETHING ELSE WITH MY LIFE! -(like another Civ2 scenario... hmmmmm)