Help with preventing a foe's science victory

[Scars n Stripes]

So I am nearing the end of a pretty tough struggle of a game I am playing on King difficulty. I've lagged pretty badly behind the 3 other "superpowers" of the game until the more recent turns in which my fruits of labor are starting to pay off with getting science production up enough to be closer to completing the Apollo project and moving for a science victory.

The problem is that it appears that both Hiawatha and Darius are pursuing the same goal. Hiawatha has already finished his SS cockpit (this I know because I snooped around his capital city with open borders - we are at least still on friendly terms).

As for Darius, he just finished Apollo project but he is Hostile toward me and is a complete BEAST of a foe (thankfully he is overseas and not poking around my continent I've dominated... YET). I just hope he doesn't decide to start invading me and then I have to gear up for a home defense while trying to build SS parts...

I guess my question is more based on HOW to destroy Hiawatha's SS parts. Since I have an idea of where he will stash them, can I destroy them? This is going to be a real make or break attempt as I am sure he will beat the crap out of me for trying (this would be an overseas attack too). But I am pretty sure that I've got to try this if I want to stay in the race.

Oh, I should mention that I don't have nukes - I am beelining for the SS parts so that option isnt there at the moment. Maybe I should shift to nuke focus?

 

[WeaselSlapper]

The problem is that it appears that both Hiawatha and Darius are pursuing the same goal. Hiawatha has already finished his SS cockpit (this I know because I snooped around his capital city with open borders - we are at least still on friendly terms).

As for Darius, he just finished Apollo project but he is Hostile toward me and is a complete BEAST of a foe (thankfully he is overseas and not poking around my continent I've dominated... YET). I just hope he doesn't decide to start invading me and then I have to gear up for a home defense while trying to build SS parts...

You don't need open boarders to see which parts he built. On of the ad visors (F8 I think) tells you who's made what progress toward each victory condition.

I guess my question is more based on HOW to destroy Hiawatha's SS parts. Since I have an idea of where he will stash them, can I destroy them? This is going to be a real make or break attempt as I am sure he will beat the crap out of me for trying (this would be an overseas attack too). But I am pretty sure that I've got to try this if I want to stay in the race.

Oh, I should mention that I don't have nukes - I am beelining for the SS parts so that option isnt there at the moment. Maybe I should shift to nuke focus?

First you don't 'stash' spaceship parts you have to move them to your capital an add them to your ship. The only way to stop him is to either block parts he's building in his empire from getting to his capital (won't be easy if you're not on his continent) or you can take his capital. I believe (but not sure) nuking his capital will also kill any progress he's made on his ship so far and he will have to rebuild his parts.

If he and Darius are on the same continent you could bribe one into going to war with the other, to slow them down and weaken their military enough for you to come in and mop up. If they're not you can still get them at war to distract them a bit, but it won't slow either down very much.

 

[Scars n Stripes]

Ok, yes I realize you can see a foe's progress in the info screens - I guess the way I wrote my post left that open for question.

The reason I said this is because I think I just happened to be in the right place at the right time.. He was moving the SS part to his Cap, and while I was snooping around he was just next to me with the part & I was adjacent to his capital with mech. Infantry. Next move, would u believe he decides to divert from going into the cap & move the part like 2 tiles outside the city and even move the tank he was protecting it with off the top of it!? So basically, as it sits at the moment in my saved game it's just open there and screaming to be picked off!

This is when I assumed he was just going to put his parts scattered around the city or something and maybe I could get them.

I did a science victory once myself but it was some time ago and I couldnt remember the exact dynamics of putting the SS together. I do remember transporting the parts with escorts into the capital though.

Unfortunately, Darius and Hiawatha are on different continents. Sounds like I may have to try inciting the two into a war.

 

[WeaselSlapper]

I did a science victory once myself but it was some time ago and I couldnt remember the exact dynamics of putting the SS together. I do remember transporting the parts with escorts into the capital though.

I never escort my space ship parts unless I'm going through dangerous (close to an enemy or open water) territory. When someone declares on you all their troops get booted out of your territory so you don't need to escort them while moving them safely inside your own boarders. However they can be bombed by planes/ships so you do need to make sure the parts are safely out of the way.

 

[Alk3Crimson]

You don't need open boarders to see which parts he built. On of the ad visors (F8 I think) tells you who's made what progress toward each victory condition.



First you don't 'stash' spaceship parts you have to move them to your capital an add them to your ship. The only way to stop him is to either block parts he's building in his empire from getting to his capital (won't be easy if you're not on his continent) or you can take his capital. I believe (but not sure) nuking his capital will also kill any progress he's made on his ship so far and he will have to rebuild his parts.

If he and Darius are on the same continent you could bribe one into going to war with the other, to slow them down and weaken their military enough for you to come in and mop up. If they're not you can still get them at war to distract them a bit, but it won't slow either down very much.

If you take a capitol that is in the process of building the spaceship, the ship just "transfers" to their new capitol with no progress lost, except for the loss of (presumably) one of their best cities. The only way for sure to shut down the spaceship production is to blockade the capitol and hope they can't build all the parts in the city itself before you wipe them off the map or win yourself.

 

[Scars n Stripes]

Getting some good feedback on this guys, thanks!

So, let's say he's stupid enough to leave the cockpit SS part sit exposed (and we all know how irrational and crazy the AI can be at times). Wonder what type of damage I could expect to do on it and what sort of hit points it would have? I only ask because I have to be %100 sure that it's worth pretty much pissing off the rest of the world for good a this point and getting the ole warmonger title all around!

At this point I guess I don't have much choice if I am to save any chance of staying in the race. This is sort of fun if that makes any sense.. This is the first time I've really tried to play the hand I was dealt from the start even though it was awful and just watch the AI run wild and now I have this sort of come from behind victory possible. It's an entirely new play style that has added a new dimension for me! I usually just steamroll the win but this is more fun I think..

 

[WeaselSlapper]

Getting some good feedback on this guys, thanks!

So, let's say he's stupid enough to leave the cockpit SS part sit exposed (and we all know how irrational and crazy the AI can be at times). Wonder what type of damage I could expect to do on it and what sort of hit points it would have? I only ask because I have to be %100 sure that it's worth pretty much pissing off the rest of the world for good a this point and getting the ole warmonger title all around!

At this point I guess I don't have much choice if I am to save any chance of staying in the race. This is sort of fun if that makes any sense.. This is the first time I've really tried to play the hand I was dealt from the start even though it was awful and just watch the AI run wild and now I have this sort of come from behind victory possible. It's an entirely new play style that has added a new dimension for me! I usually just steamroll the win but this is more fun I think..

Assuming they are counted like all other civilian units, one bombing from a bomber should take it out. Normally when I look at the damage estimate from the bomber it says I will do 4 damage, but I normally kill civilians in 1 hit.

 

[fromar]

Getting some good feedback on this guys, thanks!

At this point I guess I don't have much choice if I am to save any chance of staying in the race. This is sort of fun if that makes any sense..

You're at the end of the game and he's about to win. Your only option is a desperate gamble that may backfire. I think it's supposed to hurt.

Remember, you can't just take his spaceship part with your open-borders unit. As soon as you declare, your unit will leave his borders and you'll have to move back in to capture the part. If you really want to stop them from building more, you could just nuke all of his production cities.

 

[Tiber4321]

I've never built the spaceship on Civ 5, but it seems like a longer process than in earlier versions, and the requisite techs are far apart in time. One thing to watch for is how much gold the AIs have that are building the SS. If they are down to nothing, its a sign they may be struggling and are hurting for resources. If they are sailing along w /10000+ gold, I'd tend to worry. You can always try to build the UN if you have a ton of gold you might be able to squeak out a dip victory before the finish their ships. If you complete 3 policy trees and there's no clear choice for a forth, the patronage tree is worth a shot. I've done this before successfully.

 

[Scars n Stripes]

I'll have to post more details of how this one turns out in a week or two, I have to put the game on hold for a bit. I got in a few more turns tonight, and it is really starting to get interesting...

I left the mech. inf. unit sitting by his cap city and between the SS part he has "parked" outside the city. He's proceeded to move it FURTHER away from the cap. and it seems that when I ghost his moves with my single unit, he moves it away again!
Clearly this is more idiot AI behavior as just as one of you guys pointed out earlier if I were to try to touch it, I'd be booted out of his territory right away. I just hope I can get my carrier and some bombers down to his coastline in time before my open border treaty runs out, I doubt he's going to renew it with me having been poking around and he warned me once not to disturb his citizens with all my forces massing at his borders! (Though that warning didnt seem to have any discernible consequence in the diplomacy info screen).

And to help out even more, China just DOW on Persia! Man, that's what I was waiting for since China is the only one so far with nukes and I am friendly with them still! With any luck, she will keep Darius busy while I plan to pick off Hiawatha's SS part.

2 more turns to complete Apollo project! And I've got 2 great scientists waiting!

 

[fromar]

Though that warning didnt seem to have any discernible consequence in the diplomacy info screen

Was the AI asking you if were were planning to attack him? If you said no, then turn around and do it anyway, you will take a pretty big diplomatic hit with the other AIs. I don't know how long your promise lasts, but it's a long time. At this point in the game though, who cares?

 

[Trik]

Open borders - blockade their capital with units, not military units just to be safe.

 

[Tiber4321]

Does he have open borders with this competing AI? If so, I hope its not mutual (probably is). Its seems very foolish to agree to open borders, in general, and especially in this type of game. I do realize that there are circumstances where open borders are a good play.

 

[Scars n Stripes]

Was the AI asking you if were were planning to attack him? If you said no, then turn around and do it anyway, you will take a pretty big diplomatic hit with the other AIs. I don't know how long your promise lasts, but it's a long time. At this point in the game though, who cares?

I think he was just warning me to keep the forces I'd been moving around near his capital away. I did respond with the favorable answer that said I would comply, but I didn't really change my behavior much. I still poked around his lands for about 5 or 6 more turns to see just how bad things are. And you're right - at this point in the game who cares about long term diplo. consequences..

As for the open borders....
Right after I'd sailed a bunch of units down to his continent, I asked for an open borders treaty with him in exchange for same. I still didn't even know what his lands looked like at all, or have any concept of how far along he was. I simply knew I had to get my butt in gear when the warning came up that he'd completed the Apollo project.

I feel a little bit more like I have a chance now with China and Persia just having gone to war. At least this way those two will be tied up and I won't have to worry about Darius as much. Ah, what the heck this game is probably lost but I'm going to ride it out and not be a puss this time and take my licks.

I think as soon as I get some more Military units built I will try going for that SS part, or maybe with any luck he'll even have another part ready for me to bomb by the time I have a carrier and bombers sitting near the coast of his lands. Gonna be funny to blow up that SS part regardless, it might just buy me enough of the extra time I need to catch up with him.

 

[Tiber4321]

Ah, I see. So in your situation, open borders are clearly to your advantage. Thanks.

 

[RonMar]

I usually go for Science Victories. Even when the AI has completed the Apollo Project before me, I am usually (lost 1) able to win. This assumes I have at least 6 fairly good production cities, some Great Scientists and some other Great People saved up.

I have a spreadsheet form which has my cities in a column with a column on each side: one for production/turn in a GA, another for production not in a Golden Age. Once I have completed Apollo, I sort the list from best to worst so I know where to build the more expensive and less expensive parts. To get the production figures, I go to each city, change it to production emphasis and fine tune it ( I often have them on another focus by this time) and then return it to its former focus. Stop growth if necessary. Do this on a non-Golden Age turn shortly before researching Rocketry. Do again when I am in a Golden Age.

Another list has the techs I need to still get through NanoTech. A column of the number of turns it will take to research them. You need to keep updating this. The techs at the end which I will get with Great Scientist just have GS in that column. At the bottom of that column I put in the maximum number of turns I think I will need to build then AND get them to my capital. I total that column.

I also have saved up some none science great people which I can burn for Golden Ages.

Parallel to these last 2 columns, leaving a blank line in case I will be in a Golden Age when I get to the end game. One column has the number of turns I expect the Golden Age from my Great People to last (remember they usually go down by 2). I total that column as well. In the second column I put the initials for the Great People I have (I usually add 2 more columns for the starting turn and original number of turns I expect to get, correcting to actual when necessary).

I total the Golden Age turns. By comparing the Tech turns left and the potential GP turns, I know when to start bulbing Golden Ages from the Great People.

This insures that I am making my best effort with the resources I have. I have to be way behind for it not to work, and in that case I will have lost anyway.

There are a few other things I keep track of (what city is actually building what part, how many turns it says it should take and what turn they start constructon).

I keep that spreadsheet (part of an Excel workbook with other records of the game) running during the game. I run Civ in windowed mode (not full screen). It should work even if you don't use 2 monitors (which I do). In my last game another civ had only one big part not completed when I had only just started building, but I still won. Another time, I lost by only one turn.

The AI does not optimize the Science Victory end game very well. You can do a better job at it if you keep track of your capabilities and maximize their potential. Just remember to start a new Golden Age when your current one runs out (I usually start it when there is one turn left in the GA that is still running).