Heroic Werewolves

[Fafnir13]

I've been enjoying the new Baron in my most recent game. One of his latest exploits, spawning a werewolf off of killing Gilden Silveric, got me to thinking. What if the power of the unit killed could influence the power of the werewolf spawned?
I made a point in another thread concerning the power/lack of power that the werewolves have base on when you are rampaging across the world with them. The Baron vs scouts and warriors is a terrifying thing to behold as nearly every ravenous spawned will become a blooded. Zip ahead a hundred turns and you're now losing most of them vs the entrenched archers or longbowmen defending most AI cities. Another hundred turns later and you're lucky to get anything going vs Arquebus and champions. Maybe it's fine for the werewolf mechanic to have a certain window of decreasing effectiveness. That could even be deliberate. My personal tastes would be to make it a bit more balanced and usable throughout the game, if only so that those hammers spent on the Baron are never wasted.
If the potency of the werewolf was more based on the unit killed, this would certainly even things up. I don't think direct strength and promotion transfers would be appropriate, but something similar would be good. Perhaps star promotions add an equal level of empowerment. The killed unit being a hero could add heroic strength and defense. Recon units might add an extra move. Mages could retain random spell spheres. There are a lot of possibilities here.
To help balance this, the base power of ravenous and blooded werewolves would need to be lowered. The types of units that can spawn werewolves should also be limited. I don't know if it still works in this patch, but I remember farming bears at one point to create werewolves. That really shouldn't be happening.
I don't know what code work would be involved, or whether it is even feasible. Hopefully someone more informed then I can weigh in on that end of the discussion.

 

[iffi]

Werebears, and werewolves from actual wolves, are still possible. I don't mind them turning were, but these ones created from animals should stay uncontrollable until put out of their misery.

 

[Demus]

nah, as long as the baron lives he should be able to control his siblings.

About the heroic's: how about a chance of gaining the unit, instead of a werewolf, as if it was dominated, with the werewolf promotion? In case the transformation wasn't a full succes, so to say.

 

[Ranos]

Ravenous Werewolves are an even match for an Axeman/Swordsman with Copper, Blooded Werewolves are an even match for a Champion with Iron and while Greater Werewolves aren't an even match for the late game units, they are still strong and you can get them early enough that they can be powerhouses. This of course depends on difficulty but the bottom line is Werewolves are strong enough as they are.

The Baron is buildable in the mid game and just like all mid game units, Werewolves aren't built for the late game. This is how FfH 2 is supposed to work.

 

[cabbagemeister]

I think you might be expecting too much out of the poor Baron. He's not at his best when sent into a late-game war. For best results, send him into a barbarian-controlled area (goblins and unfortified warriors, yummy for my ravenous werewolves) and he'll emerge highly-promoted with a massive werewolf army that will THEN turn the tide in your war. At this point, it becomes evident that Duin does not need a boost.

 

[popejubal]

Don't forget to give him Orthus's Axe and any other gadgets that you happen to have lying around. If you have a priest/disciple lying around, keep them near the Baron to get him fully healed, too. You'll soon have an large army of well promoted Werewolves on your hands.

 

[Pike the Hands]

werewolves from actual wolves

I find this hilarious. Dumb, but hilarious.

 

[wuntoothrie]

I agree to some extent ... maybe empowered promotions depending on the level of the unit transformed ... or depending on the tier of the unit transformed T1 units - empowered I, T2 units - empowered 1-2 and so on ...

it would go to figure that a champion turned werewolf would be more imposing than a scout turned werewolf ...

but in the same vein of thinking a champion turned werewolf with strength 5 should still be noticeably tougher than a champion turned werewolf with no strength bonuses at all ... I mean it's not like the werewolf incubates inside the unit and bursts through it's chest a newly created beast ...

 

[cabbagemeister]

But both the champion and the scout are just people; one isn't necessarily physically stronger than the other. The champion is a stronger unit because of his training and his equipment and the way he fights in concert with his comrades--all of which is lost when he transforms into a feral half-beast.

 

[wuntoothrie]

But both the champion and the scout are just people; one isn't necessarily physically stronger than the other. The champion is a stronger unit because of his training and his equipment and the way he fights in concert with his comrades--all of which is lost when he transforms into a feral half-beast.

true but I'm thinking that at the very least the residual muscle memory of the techniques and ability to overpower that is required when killing a man as opposed to the ability to climb a tree to see over the next hill is going to make some difference when those people are transformed into snarling, furry, raging, beasts

now that is a bit trite, but considering champions and scouts as base units I think I'm right ...

 

[Ranos]

true but I'm thinking that at the very least the residual muscle memory of the techniques and ability to overpower that is required when killing a man as opposed to the ability to climb a tree to see over the next hill is going to make some difference when those people are transformed into snarling, furry, raging, beasts

now that is a bit trite, but considering champions and scouts as base units I think I'm right ...

But the residual muscle memory of the champions is the swing of the sword and the blocking with a shield, not hand to hand combat. If anything, your arguement is reversed from where it should be. A scout slinking through the forest is going to have more skill relating to what a werewolf would use than a champion marching at the front of a column of troops.

Think of it like this:

Take a man who knows how to shoot a rifle and put a hand gun in his hand. He'll still understand the basic concept of how it works but most everything else is different. He won't be as accurate with the hand gun without practice. Same thing with making a werewolf out of a unit that uses a sword or a bow to fight with.

What it all boils down to in the end though is game play. Early game units are meant to be used in the early game. Use them then and you acan get some nicely promoted early game units. In the mid game though, you'd better upgrade those to mid game units to make the viable in your wars.

The Baron is a mid game unit. The Ravenous Werewolves are a mid game unit. Blooded Werewolves are a mid to late game unit and Greater Werewolves are a late game unit. If you get the Baron out in the mid game and send him and the Ravenous Werewolves he creates against the Swordsmen/Axemen of the mid game, you'll be able to get a decent army of Blooded Werewolves to go up against the mid to late game Champions. Use them enough and they'll convert to Greater Werewolves to go up against the late game units.

 

[zup]

Getting feral bond early enough to make real use of Baron (wipe out everything else) does not allow for a back up plan. (Über starting positions don't count.) You miss lots of wonders and religions. Get them all! And a single ass rape by the rng will cost you the game.

You don't send werewolves against axemen or archers and hope to win. You slaughter warriors and scouts with them.

 

[wuntoothrie]

good points all around ... I still think that a lobotomized marine could beat the snot out of a lobotomized eagle scout any day of the week ... let alone a hirsute lobotomized marine with a permanent erection ... yeah, try to erase that image from your memory

and as far as gameplay Duin; despite his limited available promotions, is a great unit all by himself ... I've never found that he's a real game changer, but I've always welcomed him as valuable addition to my main stack ... but I play marathon games and wasting all that time researching the chain that leads up to FB does seem a bit short sighted ... though I guess if you got him early enough he could be a real game changer .... hmmmm