Hidden Agenda
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moysturfurmer
Emperor
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Hidden agendas are randomized. Teddy might wanna have the biggest religion one game & hate religion the next.
Teproc
King
Those are two different things. Every civ will always have the same historical agenda (eg Teddy Roosevelt's Big Stick Policy) and a randomized hidden agenda.
Teproc
King
Yes. We don't really know what the hidden agendas are yet, presumably they're done in such a way that they don't contradict historical agendas too much ? It's a concern, frankly, but we'll see.
stealth_nsk
Deity
I really like the idea of hidden agenda as a thing which could make relation-based diplomacy less predictable and controllable. What bothers me is:
For relations-based diplomacy to work well, it needs to show exact numbers affecting the relations, like in Civ4. For this to work with hidden agenda it needs to show something like "+3 hidden agenda" in the relations screen. If it will be so, I'm afraid players will visit each of the leaders each turn to see if we get some hidden agenda modifier and try to guess which player actions caused the change.
This could be quite boring (but necessary on high difficulty levels) micromanagement.
For relations-based diplomacy to work well, it needs to show exact numbers affecting the relations, like in Civ4. For this to work with hidden agenda it needs to show something like "+3 hidden agenda" in the relations screen. If it will be so, I'm afraid players will visit each of the leaders each turn to see if we get some hidden agenda modifier and try to guess which player actions caused the change.
This could be quite boring (but necessary on high difficulty levels) micromanagement.
stealth_nsk
Deity
Because if you get denounced by someone with +4 known relations it's like backstabbing in Civ5. Immersion-breaking, player-frustrating, forum-ranting, that sort of thing.
On a serious note, if hidden agenda modifiers are small, they will just not work. If they are large, not knowing part of modifiers will be like not knowing them at all.
Teproc
King
That's... no. "Hidden", means hidden. You can uncover it with spies, why would you bother doing that if the game gives you all the info right away ?
I love how backstabbing is "immersion-breaking", but a computer telling you what a diplomatic rival thinks is not. Because backstabbings never happened historically, but everyone always knew exactly what other leaders were thinking. You might prefer full information and that's fine, but using "immersion" as your reason is nonsensical.
I love how backstabbing is "immersion-breaking", but a computer telling you what a diplomatic rival thinks is not. Because backstabbings never happened historically, but everyone always knew exactly what other leaders were thinking. You might prefer full information and that's fine, but using "immersion" as your reason is nonsensical.
stealth_nsk
Deity
It was a joke if you missed that. I was ok with backstabbing in vanilla Civ5, but I'm really in minority. The Civ5 diplomacy was biggest part of $#itstorm, which caused Jon to be fired and other team (including Ed) took his place.
There's also a real reason behind it. The term "meaningful diplomacy" means you have some actions => results in it. If you don't have reliable information, this may be not working.
m15a
Emperor
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You have the information that each civ has a hidden agenda. If a civ denounces you even though you have a positive modifier, then that means the hidden agenda is contributing a negative modifier larger than your overall modifier, if you are only denounced if your modifier is below 0.
You don't need reliable complete information if you have some idea how the system as a whole works. Like, you can make military decisions even if there is fog of war in the enemy territory. You don't get annoyed when an enemy unit comes out of the fog because the fog implies that possibility. And if you don't want that uncertainty, uncover the fog with scouts - just like you can uncover the hidden agenda with spies.
You don't need reliable complete information if you have some idea how the system as a whole works. Like, you can make military decisions even if there is fog of war in the enemy territory. You don't get annoyed when an enemy unit comes out of the fog because the fog implies that possibility. And if you don't want that uncertainty, uncover the fog with scouts - just like you can uncover the hidden agenda with spies.
footslogger
Warlord
I'm pretty sure I recall Ed saying in an early Civ6 interview that they were contemplating giving leaders a second hidden agenda later in the game, also randomised, to add an extra layer of unpredictability.
stealth_nsk
Deity
It all sounds good in theory, but it's very easy to fall into "not enough information to make reasoned decision" trap. We have to wait and see how exactly it will be implemented and how well it work. I just wanted to share my concerns.
m15a
Emperor
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That may be possible, but I think it's much more likely that the game falls into the too little information trap than the trap of giving too much information about something that was deliberately designed to hide information.
Diplomacy could also be so different from Civ V or IV that neither the known modifiers or hidden modifiers model are relevant.
Diplomacy could also be so different from Civ V or IV that neither the known modifiers or hidden modifiers model are relevant.
stealth_nsk
Deity
It couldn't. There are actually 3 models of diplomacy:
- No relation modifiers. Simple, works in multiplayer, have no immersion. Often found in fantasy strategy games.
- Relation modifiers for leaders. Quite simple, don't work normally in multiplayer. Civilization-style.
- Relation modifiers not tied to leaders (i.e. "public opinion"). Complex, could work for MP, but exists in theory only and likely have a lot of problems in implementation.
Modifiers could be hidden, visible or partially visible.
Generally that's the whole spectrum of decisions. There are a lot of additional options like the available treaties and things affecting the relations.
I also think there will be 1 historical agenda and 2 hidden, has it been changed to 1?
Also an mod idea: giving civs hidden historical agendas, like Germany might be spamling u boats, or trying to colonize their own "east africa" to other continent etc.
Also an mod idea: giving civs hidden historical agendas, like Germany might be spamling u boats, or trying to colonize their own "east africa" to other continent etc.
stealth_nsk
Deity
1 historical and 1 hidden confirmed. The second hidden agenda is something developers consider, but no final decision yet.
Hidden agendas are hidden to discover them in the game. There should be 2 hidden agendas to give more unpredictability and variety, I think. If they are random, not all hidden agendas would be always in every game. The question is whether they can come up with so many agendas.
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