Historiography of Civ pt. 3: The Nation-State

Arkaeyn

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Did you miss Part One? It's here.
Part Two is here.
You should probably read part one if you're going to say "But it's just a game!"

The final major aspect in which Civilization is historiographically conservative is in its portrayal of its human history as the interaction of separate nation-states. All of the civilizations in the games play similarly, and all are under complete control of the player. This can lead to obvious absurdities – the first two Greek cities are Athens and Sparta – and has the effect of negating internal conflicts in a civilization. To carry on the Greek example, much of what is referred to as “Greek culture” in history is really Athenian culture, and Sparta is always held up as diametrically opposed to Athens. The extraordinarily important internal-driven change in Civilization is so abstracted as to be nothing more than an occasional annoyance. The French Revolution and the American Civil War would, in Civilization, be modeled as exactly equivalent player-induced changes in government.

On the other hand, interactions between the nation-states is held up as critically important. Wars, technological exchanges, border clashes, and the like all occur and demand great amounts of player attention. Modeling the American Civil War would take only a few clicks to, say, switch the government from Republic to Democracy, while the Spanish-American War would be modeled in excruciating detail, from loading the troops onto the ships to having to entertain the Philippinos to prevent them from rebelling. This conforms to the conservative historical view that human history is little more than the creation of empires or nation-states and their struggles with one another, a viewpoint which every year manages to bore more and more high school students forced to remember the dates 1066, 1492, 1588, and 1914 (the conquest of England, opening of America by Columbus, failure of the Spanish Armada, and the start of World War One). This pushes Civilization firmly into the category of political and military history, while ignoring the extremely vibrant fields of social and intellectual history. The nation-based concept of civilizations is also based around European experience**, which manifests itself in Civilizations lone choice for a sub-Saharan African civilization, the Zulu, whose primary claim to fame was their banding together, European-style, in order to conflict with the European British. (Ironically, given its title, Rise of Nations is more fair to Africa, with its Bantu and Nubians being far worthier claimants to the concept of a ‘civilization.’)

**The argument that Civilization is Eurocentric is another form in which it is historiographically conservative, however, it seems so obvious that I have not yet written a demonstration of it.

For any epic strategy 4X*** game to move away from this model would require a complete change in thinking, moving towards a macromanagement model. That is, the player’s abilities to influence the game world are more limited, and as the civilization expands, the player has less control over the farther regions, creating true border zones and the potential for places within the civilization act on their own and drive internal change. Master of Orion III was originally designed to do something like this, but the designers panicked at the ambition, and instead opted for the “complete crap” style of gameplay. That disaster will almost certainly frighten away designers trying to create to this more historical, potentially more fun model of strategic gameplay.

*** eXplore, eXpand, eXploit, eXterminate – the general category in which most strategy games fall, with Civilization as the Platonic ideal of the genre.
 
I agree that civization is too Eurocentricly based, but might not be because that is where the majority of the customers come from?

Also I agree that macromanagement is a good things as well. More for the realism than anything else. I mean what kind of person is in charge of a huge democracy and is able to completely completely who works where, what cities build, how much money the science dpartment has, what the science department researchs (maybe blind research is a possiblity, like in Alpha Centauri. How can anyone possibly decide "now I want you to start discovering Gunpowder" And as well as all the domestic issues is also able to tell the troops directly where to go.
 
The 4X, external-conflict style of games is more playable than an internal-conflict, macromanagement game. There is historical accuracy, and then there's playablity. You have to balance both to get a good game.
 
I can't say I completely agree with you, but you do have some good points. It was interesting to read.
 
I think you're looking for civ to be something it was never intended to be.

At the end of the day, game designers don't make games for the small percentage of people that have a great deal of knowledge about the subject their game is on.

Game designers make games for the average joe public, who does not know human history in any great detail or how the world works outside his own borders.
By placing limitatings and restrictions on a game by taking away abstractions you also limit amount of choices one has in a game and the 'fun' for many people.

I really don't care how important you think Civ is or what you think in your own mind, you really do need to understand the tired but true points that it IS only a game.
The designers make no claim to writing a history book or a history based game, once you realise these points then a lot more things will start to make sense to you.

Civ didn't and wouldn't get to be massively popular by having a super duper realistic game that conforms to X model or whatever. Think about that.

[edit] There is also a limit to what is feasable.

You would enjoy a game such as Rome Total War significantly more due to the less abstractions it has, but, it covers a much smaller period (20 game turns in civ but 400 game turns in RTW).
The point is the bigger your time scale the more you have to absract, beacuse its not feasable to create a game that covers 5000 years of human history in detail.
 
I think you may be posting in the wrong place, Arkaeyn.

Civilization is essentially a game about micromanagement. Particularly military micromanagement. The micromanagement doesn't necessarily add anything to the game; military tactics (when they do not consist of number-crunching) often rely more on exploiting AI deficiencies and quirks in the game engine than true strategy of any complexity. When you get down to it, battles--particularly player vs. AI, but also many multiplayer battles--often consist of little more than "you throw your army at me and I'll throw mine at you". Yet it remains as heavily micromanaged, just for the sake of micromanagement alone--the designers could easily strip it down to a much faster, more convenient macromanaged system without substantially subtracting anything from the experience except the element of pure micromanagement, but of course they have not done and most likely will not ever do so.

Are your ideas wrong? No. Would they be helpful in making a superior game? Vastly. But they're generally not very compatible with Civ itself on a fundamental level. This isn't to say that they're entirely incompatible; I hope the developers of Civ IV arrive at similar ideas and implement them to the highest degree practicable. Civ has many vestigial features from its early days, ideas that were perhaps quite thoughtful and innovative at the time but never really panned out, and so has ample room for improvement. Ultimately, however, when and if this model is ever finally embraced fully, it's not likely to ever happen under the Civilization title.

The bottom line is, indeed, that Civilization is only just a game. Emphasis on "only": it could be a revolutionary game of unsurpassed quality. It could be a major cultural phenomenon, or a great educator, or all of these things together. But no; it is only just a game (a pretty good one, to be sure, but by this point it's not anything special). Bound by the constraints it has set on itself, it's not likely to end up being much more than that anytime soon.
 
It appears that breaking up my concept into four parts has changed the appearance of my argument in the sections which are lacking the intro and conclusion, fairly understandably. It appears as my argument is being taken as "Civilization is too simplificied and ahistorical in certain respects and should be fixed."

The point I'm actually trying to make goes like this:

Civilization, being an ambitious game, is forced to simplify what it models (human history). By examining what it simplifies and why, we can examine what the designers, and the society they belong to, think about human history.

I present examples from other games not to say that Civ should or shouldn't act like them, but rather, to show that these things can be done in other ways, and it was therefore an active decision by the designers to make the game play that way.


Anyway, onto specific responses that I didn't just cover. Peck of Arabia, you bring up economic reasons for being Eurocentric. I don't think that was the case. I doubt it was an active choice by the designers to make things that way. The reason being, it fits it almost perfectly with conventional American views of human history.

Puglover, you might be right that it's more playable as a nation-state based game. The history of grand strategy games would seem to indicate that you're right, but it's quite possible - and games like The Sims and SimCity back me up here - that games can be designed with a different focus. But, as I mention earlier, I'm not trying to fix Civilization necessarily, but I am trying to describe it. If it is a flaw in the medium of 4X strategy games, then that's unfortunate.

DaveDash, I agree with you. The game is not designed as a perfect model of human history (wouldn't really be a game in that case) nor are most of the players experts on history. That reinforces my point!

Here's an analogy. The "Western" genre in movies, before the late 60's or so, presented an ahistorical view of the American west in the 1800s. The film's directors and producers would probably claim that they were only creating entertainment, not accurate history. And they'd be right. However, because the films were popular and influential, and also because the viewers didn't necessarily know about the true history of the American West, the history portrayed in the Westerns has become the "true" history of the American West in the minds of many people who watched the movies. Even if the choices the directors of those films were based entirely on entertainment, they have ramifications on what is considered "history."

Civilization doesn't have the audience that those movies did, but I think that games, because they cause the player to decide to act in certain ways, have more potential influence on people's minds.

Elysium Dreams, I think most of what you said I responded to at the start of this message. But I must say, if you know a better place for me to post, let me know. My goal is to find, or found, a community of people who are willing to examine games both as games and as objects deserving of intellectual study. Gamers do the first, academics occaionally do the second, but very few want to do both.
 
While some people may base history from what they see in a movie, computer game, or other such thing, I really doubt the majority of people do.

I think you're not giving people enough credit.

I think the most movies or computer games or some such thing will give people is 'impressions' of history.

People who seriously want to learn will take to the history books and find out the 'truth' for themselves.

A particular societies preconceived notions is never going to go away, ever. The designers of a civ game are likely to look at the world through 'western' to 'American' eyes, so what.

Most of our 'true' history is actually the same - trying to get information of Carthage for example we have to look through the eyes of Roman historians who are heavily biased.
 
Actually, I'd say that Civ does a bad job of modelling nation-states. In the modern world, people are organized into ethnically and culturally based nations which are more or less permanent. If America invades Iraq, it doesn't become part of America. It's just Iraq under American occupation and no amount of American effort would turn Iraqis into Americans. A game of Civilizatrion usually involves various empires expanding, fighting wars, and devouring one another as they grow larger and larger. Where do Greece, Slovakia and Luxemborg fit into this scheme? In Civ, post-WW2 Eurpoe would be all part of America or Britain or Russia rather than a collection of nation-states. After the middle ages, the game seems like some sort of weird alternate history where the various empires never broke up but just got bigger and bigger.
 
I think you're not giving people enough credit.

It's a fairly common practice of the left, and sometimes the right as well when it comes to critiquing cultural products by assuming the population is stupid, dumb and impressionable.
 
dexters said:
It's a fairly common practice of the left, and sometimes the right as well when it comes to critiquing cultural products by assuming the population is stupid, dumb and impressionable.
Since the whole CONCEPT of Culture is totally subjective, how could it be otherwise? :lol:
 
DaveDash said:
While some people may base history from what they see in a movie, computer game, or other such thing, I really doubt the majority of people do.

I think you're not giving people enough credit.

I think the most movies or computer games or some such thing will give people is 'impressions' of history.

People who seriously want to learn will take to the history books and find out the 'truth' for themselves.

A particular societies preconceived notions is never going to go away, ever. The designers of a civ game are likely to look at the world through 'western' to 'American' eyes, so what.

I would say that it's fair to believe that most people do, in fact, get many of their opinions from sources that aren't history books. Take a look at book sales compared to population. History is not exactly what the kids call "popular." Yet I'd imagine even people who don't read history books regularly have opinions on historical subjects.


I think we have a fundamental difference in the way that we think that people form beliefs. What I'm gathering from you is that you think that people actively will seek out new information in order to make up their minds about what they believe. That is, if someone wants to form an opinion about a certain aspect of history, they will seek out experts (or their books) and come to an opinion based on their logical judgement. The entire process is conscious, planned, and chosen.

By that logic, a person who plays Civilization, but doesn't think about history, will not be influenced in their thinking about history by Civilization, which seems to be your point. If this is a misinterpretation of what you're saying, let me know.

On the other hand, I tend to think that most beliefs are formed nonconsciously, and are heavily influenced by things that they don't actively think about. This isn't to say that most people are incompetant - I think that pretty much everyone, including myself, and also people who are competant, are influenced in their beliefs by things they don't think about.


I agree that preconcieved notions aren't going to to go away, everyone and every society has them. But I think it's painfully obvious that they can be changed. I mean, you and I think that the world revolves around the sun. However, we seem to disagree when you say "So what". I think that it's kind of important that people know what their preconcieved notions are. You may not.
 
Gato Loco said:
Actually, I'd say that Civ does a bad job of modelling nation-states. In the modern world, people are organized into ethnically and culturally based nations which are more or less permanent. If America invades Iraq, it doesn't become part of America. It's just Iraq under American occupation and no amount of American effort would turn Iraqis into Americans. A game of Civilizatrion usually involves various empires expanding, fighting wars, and devouring one another as they grow larger and larger. Where do Greece, Slovakia and Luxemborg fit into this scheme? In Civ, post-WW2 Eurpoe would be all part of America or Britain or Russia rather than a collection of nation-states. After the middle ages, the game seems like some sort of weird alternate history where the various empires never broke up but just got bigger and bigger.


Historically speaking, you're correct. I like to note that in Civilizations terms, the only real "civilization" which can claim to have played the game fully would be China, but with the foreign Tang, Yuan, and Qing dynasties, even that claim can be disputed.

This is obviously a gameplay issue. The game, as is, wouldn't work if civs rose and fell as they did in history, because that would leave odds of 1 in 31 of even getting to the modern age.

On the other hand, there's at least one grand historical strategy game which managed to avoid this, SSI's ancient Medieval Lords of Europe. In that game, the player chose to advise the rulers of a city-state or empire or whatever. The rulers lived and died, and when they died, the player could leave and join another country. So if you were playing, for example, a powerful caliphate in the Middle East which was about to be destroyed by the Mongol invasion and your Caliph died, you could switch over to a rising kingdom in France at a slight penalty. So it can be done, but obviously in a style very different from Civilization's.
 
Arkaeyn said:
I would say that it's fair to believe that most people do, in fact, get many of their opinions from sources that aren't history books. Take a look at book sales compared to population. History is not exactly what the kids call "popular." Yet I'd imagine even people who don't read history books regularly have opinions on historical subjects.


I think we have a fundamental difference in the way that we think that people form beliefs. What I'm gathering from you is that you think that people actively will seek out new information in order to make up their minds about what they believe. That is, if someone wants to form an opinion about a certain aspect of history, they will seek out experts (or their books) and come to an opinion based on their logical judgement. The entire process is conscious, planned, and chosen.

By that logic, a person who plays Civilization, but doesn't think about history, will not be influenced in their thinking about history by Civilization, which seems to be your point. If this is a misinterpretation of what you're saying, let me know.

On the other hand, I tend to think that most beliefs are formed nonconsciously, and are heavily influenced by things that they don't actively think about. This isn't to say that most people are incompetant - I think that pretty much everyone, including myself, and also people who are competant, are influenced in their beliefs by things they don't think about.


I agree that preconcieved notions aren't going to to go away, everyone and every society has them. But I think it's painfully obvious that they can be changed. I mean, you and I think that the world revolves around the sun. However, we seem to disagree when you say "So what". I think that it's kind of important that people know what their preconcieved notions are. You may not.

No, my line of thinking is much much simplier than that.

People who are INTERESTED in history will find out for themselves, and those who are NOT are never really going to discuss it, appreciate it, or use it to influence their decisions so it doesn't really matter.

People who play games for games certainly arn't going to enter a discussion using the said game as a source, now are they? Most likely people get their impressions of history from what they learnt at school and from their parents.

At the end of the day with the internet revolutionising modern information flows, it's not that difficult for your 'average joe' to get clued up and also lose some of their culturally preconceived notions.

What I am significantly more concerned about is the misreporting in media outlets globally rather than people using computer games as a source of history (with the exception of games that ARE based on history and are usually only played by people who have an interest in the first place!).

Civ3 is not a history book and does not try to advertise as such. It is an empire building game with some historical flavour to make people relate to the game better.
 
Gato Loco said:
Actually, I'd say that Civ does a bad job of modelling nation-states. In the modern world, people are organized into ethnically and culturally based nations which are more or less permanent.

1. Only in the west. Many many places around the world today are organized based on post-colonial borders that are certainly NOT permanent and the reason for constant wars. Israel being a classic example.

If America invades Iraq, it doesn't become part of America. It's just Iraq under American occupation and no amount of American effort would turn Iraqis into Americans.

Americans are western, and Iraq can certainly become 'westernized'. They certainly won't be Americans, but cultural assimilation is possible. America could quite possibly take over Mexico and assimilate that culture, not that I see it happening as the reverse seems true at the moment :lol:

Japan is a classic example, prior to WW2 Japan had an imperialistic brutal culture very different from western cultures, now it's been 'westernized' to some extent despite retaining many of it's original cultural traits.
How many Japanese do you see walking around the streets of Tokyo wearing a business suit?
How many Iraqi's will we see doing the same in the future?

After the middle ages, the game seems like some sort of weird alternate history where the various empires never broke up but just got bigger and bigger.

The game does not model this very well indeed, but again the game is not a history book. If you are after a game that does model such things then you should go and look at the total war series.

Again, it all comes down to feasability. The games that do model many of these aspects only cover a short period of time. It is not feasable for a game company that is trying to make a profit and make a fun product to model historical accuracy completely over such a dynamic and large time period.

Does that mean we shouldn't aim for that? Hell no.
 
I, and I suspect a fair amount of people on this forum, have a recent history degree and so am familiar with this type of argument. If your argument is that the gamers made the game based on 'American' preconceived notions, I find myself wondering exactly where you want to go with that. If that's all you've got, it seems like a painfully obvious conclusion and it seems to be just another example of leftist historians' favorite activity: picking on easy targets from their high horse of modern cultural 'enlightenment.' The Western Left has really taken a cue from the Marxist-Leninists in regarding their own views as absolutely correct and exclusively valid, not only factually or analytically, but also morally. I have always found it interesting that the leftists who deny the 'outmoded ideas' that truth exists in history or that it is possible to construct a historical narrative never fail to do so themselves. Although truth cannot exist (says the Left), and therefore 'conservative' views of history are laughably untrue, the Left always regards their own views as being the gospel truth and anyone who dares to raise their pen against them as crazy fundamentalists or naive traditionalists. And again, though the traditional narrative is public enemy #1 to New Historians, they have effectively created their own narrative: that of blind religiosity, to Rankean scientific elitism, to the beginnings of social history in the 1960's, leading finally to the pinnacle, the 1917 of historiography: the rise of the modern left. In this interpretation, just as in the Soviet interpretation of pre-Soviet times, everything that has come before must be rejected wholesale; the minor nuggets of usefulness to be found there cannot overcome the pervasive wrongheadedness that our 'enlightened' age has finally escaped. I find Arkaeyn's interpretation of Civ to be based on this type of thinking.

If your argument is that people need to examine where they come from and their own cultural prejudices, well, then I agree with you; people should, and they frequently do. But I agree with some of the other posters that this argument definitely has elitist connotations: that the majority of people blunder through life, ignorant, prejudiced, and painfully unaware of their own historical situation, when of course they should be feeling guilty that their ancestors did bad things and that they get to eat every day while, you know, there are people starving in Africa. You do need to give people more credit.

This could get really epistemilogical, but I'll stop now. I just want to say that you're right: truth is elusive, but then you need to be just as careful as the rest of us when denying the validity of competing ideologies.

EDIT: All that said, I do agree with what you're trying to do: raise gaming to a more intellectual level, as well as intepret games on a cultural and historical basis. Keep it up, but know that I will be arguing with you.
 
DaveDash said:
No, my line of thinking is much much simplier than that.

People who are INTERESTED in history will find out for themselves, and those who are NOT are never really going to discuss it, appreciate it, or use it to influence their decisions so it doesn't really matter.

People who play games for games certainly arn't going to enter a discussion using the said game as a source, now are they? Most likely people get their impressions of history from what they learnt at school and from their parents.

At the end of the day with the internet revolutionising modern information flows, it's not that difficult for your 'average joe' to get clued up and also lose some of their culturally preconceived notions.

What I am significantly more concerned about is the misreporting in media outlets globally rather than people using computer games as a source of history (with the exception of games that ARE based on history and are usually only played by people who have an interest in the first place!).

Civ3 is not a history book and does not try to advertise as such. It is an empire building game with some historical flavour to make people relate to the game better.


If history is considered narrowly as a academic subject, a course or two in school, then I would agree most people don't use history as a guide to their decisions. However, I tend to view history as something more than that. A very broad way of looking at history that history is events in the past that hae bearing on the present and future. When anyone makes an argument where they cite an event from the past as justification for their argument, they're using history. That's so wide as to be almost meaningless, so I'll use a narrow example relevant to the title of this thread.

I'd be willing to bet that most Americans have some opinion about America's recent military involvement in Iraq. Many pro-war people argue that Saddam Hussein's Iraq was very bad, and America has demonstrated in the past its ability to reform societies after military intervention, specifically Germany and Japan after WWII. Many opposed to the war argue that the Middle East has been for a long time an area which is not easily changed, and America's interventions in the past, specifically Vietnam, have been failures. All of these arguments involve the historical behavior of nation-states, specifically the USA. I believe that Americans have opinons on the Iraq war, and these opinions are historically informed, but, again, history book sales probably aren't reaching 280 million people. So Americans must be developing these historically based opinions regarding the behavior of nation-states from other sources.

Do I believe that people are going to get the majority of their opinions from Civilization? Of course not, most of it probably comes from the news media. Do I beleive Civilization and games in general might have some influence? Well, it's a strategically wise decision in Civ to attack a weaker country that has oil when you do not have oil. Hell, it's a wise decision in Civ to attack a weaker country just because it is weaker in order to use its cities to serve your ends. The Project for the New American Century makes similar arguments.


I also have to question your assertion that Civ is not a history game, although history games exist. I see no obvious dividing line between the two. There are certainly games which attempt for more of a model of history than Civ, it is true, but all games are abstractions to some degree or another. And if Civ didn't follow history to some degree or another - "Sire, the discovery of Bronze Working has allowed us to build Tanks!" - it wouldn't work.

(I'm trying to think of a game with a historical setting that doesn't say anything about history...Soul Calibur, perhaps)
 
Colontos, I am typically not a fan of arguments whose primary vein seems to be "how leftist! Leftists suck." But, you did say a little bit more than that, and you did indicate that you agree with my attempt to add ideas other than quality to discussion of gaming.

That's really my main thrust. You are, in many ways, correct to say that my thesis is little more than that the American game designers of Civilization included many typical American biases about history. But, as I indicated to Davedash, I think it's important that these biases be understood. Also, more importantly, simply the act of describing them in relation to a game is something many people have not considered. It's quite normal to expect bias in news media and nonfiction print, and to a lesser degree in movies and music, but I almost never see it in games (except with blatant examples like America's Army) Finally, I'm not so sure what your argument that Civilization might be an easy target is. If it is an easy target, then doesn't that mean I am either justified in attacking it or that I will be successful in attacking it, if not both? In Civilization, if another civ attacks you and leaves its cities undefended, do you pull back because it's too easy of a target?

As to your rambling attack on "leftist" historians, all I can say is "thanks for putting words in my mouth." If I'm making an argument, should I not believe that the argument is, in fact, correct? I'm pretty certain that I haven't said that there is no historical truth, but you seem to want to attribute that belief to me.

Your elitism claims are even more bizarre. I was initially accused of elitism because some people believed that my claims that people could be influenced by things they don't directly think about applied only to the "great unwashed masses" as might be said. I replied that no, I think that everyone has nonconscious influences, including myself, which kind of negates the definition of elitism. "Damn humans born with two eyes elitists!"

Yet your description of me seems to be that, since some of my arguments have a leftist bent and you believe that leftists must be elitist, I must be elitist. That's hardly fair.

If you do indeed applaud me for trying to examine games on different levels, and you do wish to argue with me, then I can quite easily say that I will happily enter such a discussion. However, I'm probably not going to happily enter any conversation with someone whose mode of argument so far has been to completely ignore the specific text of what I've said, slap a negative label on me, and then describe how everyone with that label is an elitist hypocrite. I'll pass on that one.
 
I've noticed loads of people going around making ancient and medieval Africa and East Asia scenarios because they felt their ethnicity was ignored to a certain degree in civ3. I believe the add ons rectify this ignorance, but still ignore the real problem.

Frankly....

I think my 100s of civs idea is the solution to this problem as it emcompasses the abstractness that this game demands (no one wants to play with a spreadsheet), the growth and appearance of civilisations and the number of different civilisations.

I believe culture could have a continental staple and then sub-groups within that continent which influence them. The same territory rules apply, but you can right click a square near your civ and find that they have 25% allegiance to egyptians 25% allegiance to morrocans 25% allegiance to carthaginians and 25% allegiance to libyans and later one after you build a temple and your territory expands due to culture you can right click on it and find that it's allegiance to you has grown. 50% egyptian 17% morrocan...

You get the idea.


No political ranting please, I have no secret agenda. I'm using history ethics here, I'm not letting my personal feelings get in the way of the truth, or in this case representing the truth. I like the idea of having lots of little states or perhaps even choosing to appear at 200 A.D. or something.

In fact don't make and insinuations about me, just leave me out of the political ranting altogether.
 
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