HMS Victory versus USS Constitution

[stormbind]

Wouldn't it be great if Unreal Tournament had a multi-player team map involving a HMS Victory and USS Constitution boarding action?

Between these two large ships, both of which claim to be the oldest commissioned warship in the world, what are the highlights of their respective histories and designs?

Warning: Answering this may well invoke an unhealthy dose of subjective opinion

 

[Hotpoint]

You're comparing a Frigate with a First Rate Ship-Of-The-Line here. Couldn't we just have them slug it out in a proper tournament?

HMS Victory

Displacement - 3500 Tons
Length - 227 feet
Crew - 800
Top speed - 11 knots
Cannons -
30 x Long 32 Pounders (2640 yards range)
28 x Long 24 Pounders (1760 yards range)
12 x Long 12 Pounders (1320 yards range)
12 x Medium 12 Pounders (1300 yards range)
12 x Short 12 Pounders (1280 yards range)
2 x 68 Pounder Carronades (1280 yards range)


USS Constitution

Displacement - 2200 tons
Length - 175 feet
Crew - 450
Top Speed - 13 Knots
Cannons -
20 x 32 Pounder Carronades (400 yard range)
32 x Long 24 Pounders (1200 yard range)
2 x 24 Pounder Carronades (1000 yard range)


Methinks "Old Ironsides" would be taking a hammering

 

[privatehudson]

Victory is the oldest in existence and was commissioned 19 years before the US ship. Constitution is the oldest still afloat though as Victory is permanently in drydock (then again so was Constitution until recently and it doesn't exactly go out much either, so that's not quite the whole story).

As to who would win that's not quite as easy as it sounds. Constitution was smaller and more manouverable than Victory and had a good capacity for taking damage from British ships. On the other hand the British ships she encountered and beat which show this like Java and Guerriere were around her size or slightly larger, whereas the Victory was a lot bigger with a correspondingly larger arnament. In the event of Victory getting in close to pummel her, I doubt "Old Ironsides" would have been quite so invincible.

My money would be on the Victory, though why any sane American commanding Constitution would attack a ship the size of Victory is beyond me. Then again since Victory was taken out of frontline service soon after the war with America broke out this whole thing is hypothetical isn't it?

 

[stormbind]

Thanks for the replies. I thought USS Constitution was a 1st rate ship of the line, so my bad.

However, afaik, they are the only surviving commissioned warships of that era - of any nation. Side by side comparison at all levels (from crew conditions, to honours, and capacities) seems acceptable to me.

HMS Victory participated in WW1/2?, during which her companion (a similar ship) was torpedoed. What can be posted about that lost ship?

Btw, did USS Constitution visit Portsmouth during the recent Nelson memorial celebrations?

 

[Hotpoint]

Thanks for the replies. I thought USS Constitution was a 1st rate ship of the line, so my bad.

Been absorbing too much Yankee propaganda?

However, afaik, they are the only surviving commissioned warships of that era - of any nation. Side by side comparison at all levels (from crew conditions, to honours, and capacities) seems acceptable to me.

The USS Constitution was certainly a superior Frigate of her day. And likely had the edge over her opposite numbers in the Royal Navy but when you get right down to it the USN was at best a third rate naval power at the time both ships were in active service. If it hadn't been for Napoleonic "entanglements" the War of 1812 would have been a very different affair when the 30 odd ships of the USN found themselves dealing with the 600-700 vessels in RN service.

Btw, did USS Constitution visit Portsmouth during the recent Nelson memorial celebrations?

Nope

 

[Trafalgar]

On the other hand the British ships she encountered and beat which show this like Java and Guerriere were around her size or slightly larger

I have to disagree with you there. The Constitution was a 24 pdr frigate. The British ships were 18 pdr frigates. The scantlings of the Constitution were considerably stronger and she also carried a larger crew. The Constitution was well handled; she always avoided combat with ships much stronger than herself.

Even a 3rd Rate would have outclassed her. On the other hand, look at Cochrane in HMS Pallas, size doesn’t always count.

A more equal match for Constitution would have been The Newcastle or the Leander.
Both were large frigates with heavy armament.

 

[privatehudson]

I have to disagree with you there

I meant merely that the Constitution, Java and Guerriere were all Frigates and therefore of roughly similar size to herself whereas when compared to the Victory was not being a 1st rate ship of the line. Sure there was differences in the other ships, but nothing as drastic as the difference between the two ships being discussed here.

 

[Trafalgar]

It's a pity there are no decent games out there to pit a Victory against a Constitution.

 

[Riesstiu IV]

You're comparing a Frigate with a First Rate Ship-Of-The-Line here. Couldn't we just have them slug it out in a proper tournament?

HMS Victory

Displacement - 3500 Tons
Length - 227 feet
Crew - 800
Top speed - 11 knots
Cannons -
30 x Long 32 Pounders (2640 yards range)
28 x Long 24 Pounders (1760 yards range)
12 x Long 12 Pounders (1320 yards range)
12 x Medium 12 Pounders (1300 yards range)
12 x Short 12 Pounders (1280 yards range)
2 x 68 Pounder Carronades (1280 yards range)


USS Constitution

Displacement - 2200 tons
Length - 175 feet
Crew - 450
Top Speed - 13 Knots
Cannons -
20 x 32 Pounder Carronades (400 yard range)
32 x Long 24 Pounders (1200 yard range)
2 x 24 Pounder Carronades (1000 yard range)


Methinks "Old Ironsides" would be taking a hammering

I think your stats for the USS Constitution are way off. Her phasers alone would be enough to disintegrate HMS victory in seconds.

* Type: Heavy cruiser
Dimensions:
* Height: 73 m
* Length: 289 m
* Beam: 132 m
* Accommodation: 430 standard
Propulsion:
* One matter/antimatter reactor powering two Shuvinaaljis Warp Technologies FWF-1 warp engines
* Impulse engines
* Performance: Warp 8 maximum
Weaponry:
* two main phaser banks, a number of phasers at other locations
* at least 2 forward-facing photon torpedo tubes
* One aft photon torpedo launcher
* Defenses: Deflector shields and deflector screens
* Auxiliary vessels: 4 shuttlecraft

 

[Bugfatty300]

USS Constitution

HMS Victory

If the two squared off today, I guess Old Ironsides would win considering its still sea worthy and has working guns and a full compliment of well trained crew.

 

[Trafalgar]

I think your stats for the USS Constitution are way off. Her phasers alone would be enough to disintegrate HMS victory in seconds.

* Type: Heavy cruiser
Dimensions:
* Height: 73 m
* Length: 289 m
* Beam: 132 m
* Accommodation: 430 standard
Propulsion:
* One matter/antimatter reactor powering two Shuvinaaljis Warp Technologies FWF-1 warp engines
* Impulse engines
* Performance: Warp 8 maximum
Weaponry:
* two main phaser banks, a number of phasers at other locations
* at least 2 forward-facing photon torpedo tubes
* One aft photon torpedo launcher
* Defenses: Deflector shields and deflector screens
* Auxiliary vessels: 4 shuttlecraft

What about this Victory?

USS Victory (NCC-9754) Constellation Class
Type: Medium Cruiser
Length:310 meters
Beam: 175 meters
Draft: 86 metres
Crew:535
Speed: Warp 8
Armament: 6 dual phaser turrets
2 megaphaser cannons
4 photon torpedo launchers
Defenses: Deflector shields

 

[privatehudson]

If the two squared off today, I guess Old Ironsides would win considering its still sea worthy and has working guns and a full compliment of well trained crew

It has a current crew of 55, that's nearly 400 less than a full compliment

 

[Evie]

So they'd have 54 left after sending one of their shipmate on a rowboat to capture the essentialy unmaned Victory?

 

[Bugfatty300]

It has a current crew of 55, that's nearly 400 less than a full compliment

Congratulations for taking my post too seriously

You mean that's 400 more than needed to capture the HMS Victory?

Then again, its not like they'll be able to "take her a prize" since its permenantly moored its dock.

I guess the Constitution boarding party would have to settle for taking it over that night, partying and getting drunk, and then leaving before the morning custodian opens the place up for the tourists.

 

[Hornblower]

Victory is still in commission and has a Lieutenant Commander as CO. He is ably served by a reasonable complement of rather jolly and alibeit long in the tooth senior sailors. I would pit the gut and gristle of an old RN'er against the damned colonials any time. Since Victory declines the need to float there is no hope of Ol' Ironsides men carrying out a successful cutting out operation then is there? Heart of Oak eh men? What what? GRRRRRR!

I do like the comment about the fledgling USN being third rate though. US ships of the 1812 war although of frigate size were amongst the best in the world. Heavily influenced by french designs (which are acknowledged as superior to the British designs of the time) the US frigates were truely feared. Additionally they were crewed by the elite and best trained officers and men in the colonies. Not having to man 600 odd ships allowed for a much more selective manning process. The USN also out trained and out sailed many a Limey ship of the line again due to the luxuries afforded them. IMHO of course.

 

[privatehudson]

Congratulations for taking my post too seriously

There was no " " anywhere in your post to give rise to a suspicion that you were joking

Then again, its not like they'll be able to "take her a prize" since its permenantly moored its dock.

As far as I know all your ship did was get towed out of harbour, sail around for an hour, fire off a 21 gun salute and then get towed back again. More than Victory, but there's no proof it would survive an Atlantic crossing.

 

[Hotpoint]

I do like the comment about the fledgling USN being third rate though. US ships of the 1812 war although of frigate size were amongst the best in the world. Heavily influenced by french designs (which are acknowledged as superior to the British designs of the time) the US frigates were truely feared. Additionally they were crewed by the elite and best trained officers and men in the colonies. Not having to man 600 odd ships allowed for a much more selective manning process. The USN also out trained and out sailed many a Limey ship of the line again due to the luxuries afforded them. IMHO of course.

I actually pointed out myself that the "USS Constitution was certainly a superior Frigate of her day. And likely had the edge over her opposite numbers in the Royal Navy" but I'm sticking by the 3rd Rate Navy for the simple reason that quantity has a quality all its own.

The USN may have had good ships (for their size), and well trained crews but it wasn't really even capable of matching even a second rate Naval power of the era like Russia (which had 30+ Ships-of-the-Line in service).

 

[Hotpoint]

As far as I know all your ship did was get towed out of harbour, sail around for an hour, fire off a 21 gun salute and then get towed back again. More than Victory, but there's no proof it would survive an Atlantic crossing.

If we're getting old warships ready for action HMS Warrior is in pretty good condition... lets try "Old Ironsides" out against a proper Ironclad

 

[Trafalgar]

I do like the comment about the fledgling USN being third rate though.

Hey, don’t get me into trouble. I meant she was no match for a third rate ship-of-the- line, a 74 or an 80. The Yanks will have my blood if I call Constitution third rate.

 

[Hornblower]

When it all boils down to it, I am just glad that somebody had the foresight to save these ships for us to appreciate. I have been lucky enough to set foot on both and had a great time doing so!
Now a match up between the HMS Warrior and USS Constitution.... that could be interesting. Ol' Ironsides against actual iron sides?