How to play the Maya on Deity?

[Keirador]

So I've been a Deity player for a while now, but I realize I haven't played the Maya, typically regarded as one of the strongest Civs, since shortly after GnK came out while I was making the move up from Emperor to Immortal.

Then, my go-to move with the Maya would be to beeline directly for Theology, go Liberty and pump out as many settlers as possible in the capital before it was time to start work on the Great Library. My cities would all be building pyramids for the science and faith, and with my awesome faith I'd found a religion that would keep Happiness high enough to support more rapid early expansion. I'd finish the Great Library in time to pop Theology and at this point I'm already golden: 6 - 8 cities, a good religion, early Great People, and enough atlatlists to keep the enemies at bay.

The Maya were a dominant force using that strategy at that difficulty level, but on Deity my winning Maya strategy doesn't work.
1) Building more than like 4 cities in the early expansion phase gets the AI down your throat real fast
2) Human players don't get the Great Library
3) Beelining Theology means foresaking some luxury techs, and the human player gets a lot less free happiness at Deity
4) Building all those cities and pumping out pyramids means you can't do the National College rush as early, which is fairly critical to keep up in science at Deity

Of those problems, by far the largest is the first. If you stay small enough that the AI doesn't eat your face immediately, you can't build many pyramids. If you try to expand anyway and simply weather the wrath of the AI, your cities need to be building atlatlists, not pyramids. It seems to me that if you can't spam pyramids, they're actually not that awfully great.

So, Deity players. . . do the Maya just suffer more than tall civs from taking the jump up to Deity? What are your tips for early game success?

 

[renton555]

I think beelining theology is kind of a bad idea. I think you should just play it like any other civ and enjoy the extra science/faith and free great people. I don't particularly think that early great people are worth very much at all, so delaying theology for a while isn't a big deal and it might even increase the expected value of the great people you do get.

Has anyone written down precisely when the long count turns are? That would be very useful information. I could certainly see timing Theology just before one of those turns. Other than that I don't believe earlier is better.

 

[Keirador]

I think beelining theology is kind of a bad idea. I think you should just play it like any other civ and enjoy the extra science/faith and free great people. I don't particularly think that early great people are worth very much at all, so delaying theology for a while isn't a big deal and it might even increase the expected value of the great people you do get.

Has anyone written down precisely when the long count turns are? That would be very useful information. I could certainly see timing Theology just before one of those turns. Other than that I don't believe earlier is better.

When you say early Great People aren't worth much. . . what? The earlier you plant a GS as an Academy, the more beakers you get from it all game long. The earlier you get a GE, the earlier you can snag a choice wonder. Having an early Great Scientist is the sole reason that Babylon is a top-tier civ.


On Standard, the Long Count turns that trigger a GP are:

Turn 62
Turn 72
Turn 86
Turn 101
Turn 117
Turn 133
Turn 152
Turn 183


If you miss these turns, you just miss the opportunity entirely, there is no saving grace. Now turn 62 is right out, turn 72 is usually not achievable on Deity, and hitting the tun on turn 86 is doable but requires beelining Theology pretty hard.

The thing about the Maya is that the Great People are not completely free: each Great person you get from the Long Count increases the cost for normal Great People. Since you can only choose Great People once, that means eventually you'll have to spawn a stupid Great Merchant, which is going to increase the cost of your next Great Scientist and Great Engineer, GPs that are actually useful.

Delaying Theology too long can therefore turn the Long Count into a negative rather than the positive.

 

[joshua43214]

I think beelining theology is kind of a bad idea. I think you should just play it like any other civ and enjoy the extra science/faith and free great people. I don't particularly think that early great people are worth very much at all, so delaying theology for a while isn't a big deal and it might even increase the expected value of the great people you do get.

Has anyone written down precisely when the long count turns are? That would be very useful information. I could certainly see timing Theology just before one of those turns. Other than that I don't believe earlier is better.

Have to disagree with your assessment here.

You want to bee line Theology. The year count slows as the turn count progresses. Near T500 you are about 1yr per turn, its much faster at low turns. The sooner you get the long count started the less influence it will have on getting other great people.

Also, being able to plant a GS that early is extremely powerful.

To the OP.
You have a GL strat. I honestly do not know how you got this on immortal reliably. I assume you had to restart a lot of games...

Maddjinn did an LP with the Maya, just watch the first segment and you should be able to formulate a solid Maya strat

 

[Keirador]

The GL strategy was for Emperor.

Interestingly, Maddjinn does not beeline Theology at all. He just ignores organic GP generation as a mechanic.

EDIT: He also relies on selling luxuries for 240 gold each to rush-buy his first two settlers to get up to 3 cities before turn 50. That is no longer a valid strategy since BNW made gold trades dependent on DOFs.

DOUBLE EDIT: And then when one of his neighbors early DOWs him, he re-sells those luxuries to other Civs to buy walls, upgrades, etc. This entire strategy is useless in BNW. Not only does the AI no longer trade lump sums without DOFs, it also just doesn't have this much money this early anymore.

TRIPLE EDIT: And runs -5 unhappiness deficits early-game without caring. Again, not doable in BNW. -5 unhappiness means -10% gold, -10% production, and -10% unit strength.

 

[Wossop]

You can just play them as any other civ with the benefit of +2 science +1 faith compared to shrine. I would get theology asap, you can actually get more useful GP besides the scientist/engineer now in BNW.

I'd say it's actually extremely versatile, even if you do not make a lot of cities +2 science that early is awesome with the added bonus of probably getting your religion even on deity. Just remember that you don't HAVE to do anything different than any other civ and just take the bonuses as they come. There's not really a negative, especially now that after picking your GS/Engineer the 3 new GP from BNW don't increase the GP points for your other GP.

You can still ICS with a strong religion, you just need better terrain to do it in BNW, it's just not as awesome/(overpowered?!) as it was in G&K anymore, gold might be an issue, start is slower, +1 global happiness per 2 instead of 1 city.

 

[glory7]

just play the same way as you play other civs except that you build "shrine" - but you will get additional faith and sci.

If you only have friendly neighbors, you may even beeline theology as you don't even need archery. Another plus.

 

[Keirador]

Thanks. So it does seem like Maya got nerfed a little with BNW, since it's harder to go wider earlier and Pyramid buildings are better the more of them you have.

Another question: do Pyramids benefit from the Piety policy of cheaper Shrines and Temples?

 

[Arachnofiend]

Another question: do Pyramids benefit from the Piety policy of cheaper Shrines and Temples?

They do. Left side Liberty and full Piety with Ancestor Worship is a pretty nice and fun strategy but I am doubtful of its effectiveness on Immortal/Deity (by "doubtful" I mean "hahaha good luck with that").

 

[WiseGreen]

N00b question: in G&K, besides sidelining some lux techs, beelining Theology also meant delaying Construction, which probably meant you usually couldn't properly defend from early AI assaults. With a less schizo AI (unless you're neighbors with Oda, Monty or Shaka), wouldn't it mean it's easier to beeline Theo than it used to be?

 

[Keirador]

Yeah, unless you provoke the AI by settling aggressively, which I had thought was part of the point of the Maya.

 

[_megafone_]

You can hit the turn 72 mark if you have a neighbor, specially if he goes bottom half of the tree (meaning more beakers from the trade routes). Pottery > AH > Mining > lux techs > beeline to Theology should be fine if you have the routes.

Otherwise, since ICS is dead, playing Mayans is no different than any other "regular" civ - just enjoy your free Faith, Science AND GPs.

 

[Deau]

Thanks. So it does seem like Maya got nerfed a little with BNW, since it's harder to go wider earlier and Pyramid buildings are better the more of them you have.

Another question: do Pyramids benefit from the Piety policy of cheaper Shrines and Temples?

No they got buffed. GAMW being on split GP cost counters and the larger diversity of great people allows them not to see their GS cost increased significantly from having to long count a great merchant or artist (or GE earlier than needed).

You don't have to go crazy wide for the UB...the UB just offsets the reduced science from going wide but Maya was always a great tall civ as well put aside the GPP cost screwing up in the very late game

The changes to great people cost justifies attempting to hit Theology ASAP (whereas it was not nearly as costly over the entire game in GnK).

Anyway long story short, ICS got nerfed, not Mayans. They are more flexible now than ever.

 

[Deau]

You can hit the turn 72 mark if you have a neighbor, specially if he goes bottom half of the tree (meaning more beakers from the trade routes). Pottery > AH > Mining > lux techs > beeline to Theology should be fine if you have the routes.

Otherwise, since ICS is dead, playing Mayans is no different than any other "regular" civ - just enjoy your free Faith, Science AND GPs.

I disagree. They're not just like other regular civs. There is a LOT to minmaxing the long count timeliness with great people spawns from points and delaying GP wonder .

 

[Magma_Dragoon]

Thing about neighbors who like the bottom half of the tech tree on deity, they like to kill you.

If the above is true, that the free great people end at 183, then how are you forced to take a merchant?

Scientist, engineer, artist, writer, musician, general, prophet. That's seven, so just miss the turn 62 guy.

Or maybe his example just ended at t183

 

[Tachii]

Don't try for Theology at T86. Most often times you can't make it unless you specifically beeline for it. I guess on Deity Pangea you're likely to get huge benefits from Caravans so it's possible, but it means you're ignoring Construction and not getting CBs until T86 and beyond. That could just kill you.

T101 is more than enough. Between these turns you can safely get Construction and other luxury techs.

And yeah, his example just ended at T183. It goes beyond it. Still, a subT300 game you usually miss the great merchant still.

 

[Lunco]

I was under the impression that the years start running after you research Theology. I guess that's not true.

So you can basically guarantee a GE on turn 117? That's interesting. Any good ideas for using it?

 

[_megafone_]

I disagree. They're not just like other regular civs. There is a LOT to minmaxing the long count timeliness with great people spawns from points and delaying GP wonder .

The thing is you don't *need* to be as precise anymore. Before BNW, the increased GPP cost for the stuff that matter (GS and GE) forced you into harder decisions about when to hit Theology and how exactly to spend your GPs; now, you can just "fill in" the midgame with free Great Works while you pump out GS with your specialists, so there's no disincentive to hit Theology as quickly as you can.

This is not an excuse to be lazy, of course; you should be min/maxing your stuff with EVERY civ you play. But on GnK, when to hit Theology was actually a hard decision, since you had to factor exactly what GPs would you need along the game as to avoid getting a Merchant... now, you just hit it ASAP.

 

[goodolarchie]

Beelining Theology has never worked out well for me. It's definitely an awesome strategy before the Immortal where the AI is so slow and docile. Consider this though - Pyramids and Messenger of the Gods easily break through the science % modifier for going wide (I say wide, but what I really mean is 5-7 really swell cities that can grow to 15+). I don't think it's a good idea unless you intend to get a religion and spread it (IFD if you have a spiritual neighbor), but putting two points in Piety will really help this.

I have had a lot of success with Liberty -> settler, Piety -> OR, backfill liberty and if timed correctly you should have generated your first GP by point accrual before getting the liberty and long count ones. Popping out 3 GS (or 1 GS and 2 GE if you want wonders) around turn 120 is pretty damn powerful and with the right espionage will keep you an era above the average literacy. This strategy feels very G&K'y but it still works well for me.

Then again I always play the first 30-40 turns more aggressively, with a couple Atlatists and a warrior you can really put the kaibosh on your neighbors' expansion and get a free worker or two while denying them the good land. It's kind of insane how easy it is to get away with a war < T40 for 2x worker/settler steal, then be trading partners with a DoF by turn 50. After that I will usually bribe someone behind them to war, and then sweep in and mop them up for cities 5 and 6. All of this is done without incurring warmonger. At this point, any victory type is open to you. Maya are my power animal.

 

[arand86]

Could someone further explain the turn 62,72 etc. comment?

I had initially thought that in every however many years the mayans would get a great person.