How to stop newly captured cities flipping...

[anarres]

I've seen a few people talk about flips from newly 'aquired' cities, and thought it may be worth stating how I deal with them. Some people may consider this exploitative, but please bear in mind that this is how I play the game. How you do so is up to you.

On deciding to take enemy cities there is only important question you need to ask yourself:

Can I take the civ out entirely within a reasonable number of turns?

If the answer is yes, then you are in good shape to take all their cities and keep them (although I often raze a few just for the workers, or because of poor map placement).

If the answer is no, you can still follow this strat, but you will have to starve all your cities to size 1 to be on the safe side, and you should raze all cities bordering the other civ. Every tile in your 21 city tiles under their cultural boundries counts against you, and unless you are also going to take those cities soon, you will face a much higher chance of flips.

So, here's what I do:

- Take city, and garrison as many military units in it as possible. I believe that it is impossible for a city to flip back the turn you take it, so your units should be safe. Note that this is just from observation. I have had no flips on turn 1, but many many flips on turn 2.

- On the next turn, move all of your troops out of the city. Even if you haven't quelled any resistors, there is a chane of flip, and if does you lose your troops. Make sure to leave at least 1 or 2 offensive units next to the city.

- If you are not going to take out the enemy civ in it's entirety soon, you must starve the city to size 1 to reduce the chance of flipping. Set all citizens to entertainers, ignore the resistors for now. Each turn, set all the citizens to entertainers again, until you are size 1, or you are down to just resistors (and 1 citizen that won't starve because of the worked city tile giving 2 food). At this point you must move as many units in to the city as possible for 1 turn only (again), and try to quell some more resistors. Next turn move them out and repeat the process until the city is size 1. When the city is size 1 garrison a few units in it, until the enemy civ is completely destroyed.

- If you are going to take the civ out soon, make sure never to leave units in it (apart from the first turn)

- When the city flips (and most size 12 cities will flip, especially when you are in 'awe' of their culture), just retake the city with your offensive units placed outside. Note that if the city flips it will get one defender, the best it can build in that city (so rifleman if in industrial age, pikeman if not there yet and iron connected to city, etc.). You should decide exacly how many offensive units to leave by the city based on the defender it will get if it flips. Not having the required firepower nearby can be very frustrating!


That's about it, although there are some more things I normally take in to account:

- If there are some far-flung cities from the civ you are capturing, I often take nearly all their cities near me, make peace (getting all the far away cities), then re-declare war and finish them off. This will give you a rep hit, and many people wouldn't use this strat out of honour, but that is your preference. Even a far-flung capital and flip a conqured big city you think is safe.

- Don't worry about flips, just make sure not to lose your units...

- If you care about Reputation, don't make peace until all the captured cities are reduced to size 1. If one flips you will have to declare war again to take it, and if you don't the 'flipped' city will really annoy you.

- Once the enemy is destroyed, all the big cities with lots of resistors in will soon calm down. There is no chance of flips now, but you must remember to quell the resistance still. If you miss a city and forget to put troops in it you will always have resistors.

 

[SanPellegrino]

well, I just mentioned it in another thread, best to read is "culture flipping explained" by Soren Johnson from Firaxis

 

[china444]

Originally posted by anarres

- On the next turn, move all of your troops out of the city. Even if you haven't quelled any resistors, there is a chane of flip, and if does you lose your troops. Make sure to leave at least 1 or 2 offensive units next to the city.

This part may not work. If you are at war against a semigood civ, they might take the city back. Which is the still losing the city just like culture flipping. i like to have a good culture when 1 go to war.

 

[Gothmog]

China444, I think the implication was that if you have a chance of losing the city militarily you raze the city, he did say as much. If it is still acessable to enemy fast units then leave a defender in there for gods sake!

Well said anarres, I've just a couple of things to add.
First, if you can stand it it is nice to use taxmen instead of clowns for a bit more income - or a scientist if you are doing min research.
Second, I set production of the city to worker - a worker produced is one less turn starving and you get a new slave!
Third, it is great when you can get the resistance to end because then you can rush workers and get the city down to size one real quick. This can be a good use for outdated military units (like warriors in modern times). Or sometimes I'll have a stack of units that go from city to city crushing resistance, with a size calculated to reduce the risk of a flip to nil.
Fourth, if the city is under cultural pressure from the enemy and you didn't raze it then it is great to get a temple built to push back those borders. If you can't get the resistance to end then disbanding a few units can do the trick - I like to use captured arti' for this purpose.

 

[Moulton]

Well, I thought I was safe... The lst Zulu city on the continent, their only large city, had 17 when I attacked, 12 when I took it. It flipped three turns later, and I had not completely rebuilt the roads, so could not get a unit close for two turns ( Flip turn plus 1)
and attack on the third. By that time they had 3 defenders. Can they conscript a new unit every turn?

 

[anarres]

Originally posted by China444
This part may not work. If you are at war against a semigood civ, they might take the city back. Which is the still losing the city just like culture flipping. i like to have a good culture when 1 go to war.

As Gothmog says, if it will be a long war, and you expect reprisals then raze the city. Personally, if I have to go to war without a decent size stack I wouldn't do this at all. If you are not going to kill the civ completely you need to starve cities to size 1 to make sure of keeping them, and it is often more productive to raise cities in this kind of situation as you get the workers.

Originally posted by Gothmog
First, if you can stand it it is nice to use taxmen instead of clowns for a bit more income - or a scientist if you are doing min research.
Second, I set production of the city to worker - a worker produced is one less turn starving and you get a new slave!

I agree about the worker, and about the taxmen if all the citizens are no longer resisting or there are no units in the city. The one thing you must remember though is that if you quell resisters in a city they automatically get assigned to work tiles, and if you quell a large number in a largish city it can riot. In this case your chance of flipping is doubled, and that is bad as when you retake it all the citizens are rioting agin...

Third, it is great when you can get the resistance to end because then you can rush workers and get the city down to size one real quick. This can be a good use for outdated military units (like warriors in modern times). Or sometimes I'll have a stack of units that go from city to city crushing resistance, with a size calculated to reduce the risk of a flip to nil.

Totally agree.

Fourth, if the city is under cultural pressure from the enemy and you didn't raze it then it is great to get a temple built to push back those borders. If you can't get the resistance to end then disbanding a few units can do the trick - I like to use captured arti' for this purpose.

You are a braver man then me. I would always raze a city on a cultural border, unless on the very next turn the border won't be there

 

[Cartouche Bee]

Once you get rid of resistors and you are really trying to starve the city down to one (I usually just use the military guard until the civ is finished though.). Try rushing settlers form the city, it can speed the effect you get by building workers. Just have those new settlers start cities on the other side of the world.

 

[Amask]

I do this all the time, and find it a great strategy.

 

[Aggie]

Originally posted by anarres
........- Don't worry about flips, just make sure not to lose your units...

Exactly my point of view . Great summary by the way, wiht some nice pointers, like your observation that cities won't flip in the first turn after capturing. Makes it more likely that I won't raze cities near the enemy's border when I can capture these cities in the next turn.

 

[TheNiceOne]

Originally posted by anarres
I agree about the worker, and about the taxmen if all the citizens are no longer resisting or there are no units in the city. The one thing you must remember though is that if you quell resisters in a city they automatically get assigned to work tiles, and if you quell a large number in a largish city it can riot

I think we all agree that when there are no resistors, you should make all citizens taxmen and not entertainers.

When there are resistors left however, you should still make a number of the citizens taxmen to get as much gold as possible, but some should be enterianers for the reaso anarres states above. The number of entertainers must be at least as many as the number of citizens that may stop resisting the following turn.

I.e. in a size 20 city with 5 resistors you should make 10 taxmen and 5 entertainers if you think all 5 resistors may be quelled. The 5 entertainers should be enough to make the 5 former resistors content, and you gain 10 gold.

 

[Trev]

It is important to get the resistance to zero as soon as possible, and as a city will not flip when there is a large number of armies in it, I always put all my armies that need their health restored in a captured city, in several turns their health will be restored and the resistance will be finished

Also I build a rush a library quickly, the culture points from a library accumulate quicker than a temple and therefore the quicker expansion of the cultural boundaries slow down counterattacks and reduce the risk of cultural flips

If this is done in all captured cities, you will soon be the culturally dominant power, which reduces risks of culture flips to a low level. I usually rush build the temple also after the library as I have never had cultural flips once I have got to 100 cultural points in a city although I imagine it is possible. This status will be achieved in about 20 turns with library and temple

 

[Hurricane]

Originally posted by Trev
It is important to get the resistance to zero as soon as possible, and as a city will not flip when there is a large number of armies in it, I always put all my armies that need their health restored in a captured city, in several turns their health will be restored and the resistance will be finished

Also I build a rush a library quickly, the culture points from a library accumulate quicker than a temple and therefore the quicker expansion of the cultural boundaries slow down counterattacks and reduce the risk of cultural flips

If this is done in all captured cities, you will soon be the culturally dominant power, which reduces risks of culture flips to a low level. I usually rush build the temple also after the library as I have never had cultural flips once I have got to 100 cultural points in a city although I imagine it is possible. This status will be achieved in about 20 turns with library and temple

This only works if your overall culture is much better than the enemy's (which seldom is the case on the higher levels). Otherwise you will see not only the cities flip, but them taking your armies with them.

 

[Trev]

Any game that I have played and continue past the early stages, I have become culturally dominant ( I am now beginning games on emperor level as I win at Monarch level )

This is due to the risk I do take in keeping cities and building cultural improvements. In the long turn the benefits outweigh the short term risks. Yes I do sometimes suffer some short turn losses, but they have never been enough to affect the military outcome of wars

The resultant cultural dominance is well worth it later in the game

 

[anarres]

@TheNiceOne

I agree with everything you say, except that I othen use scientists if I am in full research mode

@Trev

As Hurricane says, it isn't always possible to rush cultural improvements. Also, the culture you create in the city only reduces the chance of a flip if you manage to get more culture in the city than the other civ had accumaleted there. If the other civ had 1200 culture points in the city it will be a very long time before the chance of a flip is reduced.

Also, I have had stacks of 20+ units flip in the past, on the second turn after capturing. On Deity this can cripple you, especially if you armies are in the city.

Again (as Hurrucane pointed out), a large factor in the flip formula is the overall cultural rating of you against the other civ. If you are in awe of their civ there is an extra x3 chance of flipping. Rushing a few improvements will not make you the cultural leader very quickly, and basing you whole game plan of being stronger culturally overall is simply not feasable in many situations, as well as a huge drain on your often limited resources.

 

[Gothmog]

Re Cartouche Bee: I've never rushed settlers before but that is a good idea, especially if you plan to wipe the civ off the map. Once they are gone you have some highly useful settlers for resettling, or your next invasion!

Re anarres: Yes, I hate when crushing resistors gives a riot and do leave entertainers in those cities. Ouch to 20+ unit flips, I feel your pain. I had 7 units flip in a city of size one with no culture pressure a couple days ago - I had rushed a 'racks there and was using it as my healing spot.
The decision to show no mercy to the offending AI was made then and there. :die:

As always TheNiceOne has the details down pat - In the heat of battle I often get a bit too... shall we say exuberant?

If I am scientific then I do sometimes rush a library instead of a temple, otherwise I just go for the temple.

Finally - does anyone know if an army counts as one unit in terms of flips and crushing resistance, or if it counts as the number of loaded units. I have assumed the former as I don't seem to have had the success I would expect using them to help crush resistance - and my emotional responce to losing an army to a flip is not pretty. :rant:

 

[ERIKK]

Originally posted by anarres
- If there are some far-flung cities from the civ you are capturing, I often take nearly all their cities near me, make peace (getting all the far away cities), then re-declare war and finish them off. This will give you a rep hit, and many people wouldn't use this strat out of honour, but that is your preference. Even a far-flung capital and flip a conqured big city you think is safe.

I wonder when that happened....

 

[anarres]

Gothmog, I have used armis to quell resistors (even 3 armies at a time), but the RNG is such that it is impossible to tell if they count as 1 or more units without many repeated tests and trials

 

[anarres]

Originally posted by ERIKK
I wonder when that happened....

Turns 176 to 179

Go to turn 178...



Note that I was using this strategy, but due to the small size of my forces, the large number of cities to take, and my intolerance of the AI's city placement I raised quite a few of them.

The previous set of turns Turns 162 to 175 saw the initial invasion of the babylonian empire, and going further back I had only just finished a war taking out the Aztecs.

Here are the before and after minimaps for the Babylonian invasion:

Note that the Ottomans started taking cities before me, so I had to jump in quick with knights, just 2 or 3 turns before I could start mass upgrading to cavalry...