How would you design Maya?

[Xandinho]

Well, self-explanatory title.
First of all, I liked how Maya was designed in Civ6 as a compact builder/agrarian civ. I missed some religious elements, though.
For Civ7, I hope they bring something like Temple Pyramid as a unique improvement.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I'd like some religious element too.

I was hoping for a unique Holy Site so we could have seen Mesoamerican looking shrines and temples in Civ 6. I'd be fine with a pyramid temple, or a religious ballcourt whether it's a building, improvement, or whole district. If they get the ballcourt maybe faith on kills?

I guess a ranged spear thrower UU is a staple, although I did learn that they also threw beehives in warfare. That would make for an interesting UU.

 

[Zaarin]

Agreed. I'd like something similar to Civ6's design, but with a unique Holy Site incorporating a pyramid complex and ballcourt (give Aztec the Chinampa and Babylon the Observatory).

although I did learn that they also threw beehives in warfare. That would make for an interesting UU.

That falls under the category of biological warfare and is a war crime. (I, uh, might be allergic...)

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Agreed. I'd like something similar to Civ6's design, but with a unique Holy Site incorporating a pyramid complex and ballcourt (give Aztec the Chinampa and Babylon the Observatory).


That falls under the category of biological warfare and is a war crime. (I, uh, might be allergic...)

It's also a crime against the bees, which to my way of thinking is the more serious offence . . .

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Agreed. I'd like something similar to Civ6's design, but with a unique Holy Site incorporating a pyramid complex and ballcourt (give Aztec the Chinampa and Babylon the Observatory).

Yeah I'd like that a lot. I also think it could get some science bonuses too.
I have to many unique Holy Sites in my designs. Probably have to reduce Egypt's to just a unique temple or let Byzantium get the Hippodrome again.

That falls under the category of biological warfare and is a war crime. (I, uh, might be allergic...)

From what I've learned all you have to do is take the hive and add weeds to it to create medicine thanks to Animal Crossing.

Of course that probably is not real, but then again isn't everyone considered a medical expert in today's society?

 

[Birch617]

Agreed. I'd like something similar to Civ6's design, but with a unique Holy Site incorporating a pyramid complex and ballcourt (give Aztec the Chinampa and Babylon the Observatory).


That falls under the category of biological warfare and is a war crime. (I, uh, might be allergic...)

I agree with giving the Aztec with a Chinampa focus
I wouldn't mind a Maya campus replacement that give some faith and some type of bonuses towards wonder building, or that i get benefits from wonders present in the city.

 

[Zaarin]

I have to many unique Holy Sites in my designs. Probably have to reduce Egypt's to just a unique temple or let Byzantium get the Hippodrome again.

TBH I'm kind of okay with giving most civs unique districts or unique improvements as I think there's general consensus that unique buildings are boring by comparison. That means some overlapping unique districts, but I think that's fine.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

TBH I'm kind of okay with giving most civs unique districts or unique improvements as I think there's general consensus that unique buildings are boring by comparison. That means some overlapping unique districts, but I think that's fine.

Sure but three might be too much, especially after we only got one this game, which is surprising.
That being said I love the idea of combining a pyramid temple with a ballcourt so that would definitely have to be a whole district. I changed the mortuary temple in the Egyptian thread to a temple replacement already that could hold artifacts, and be themed automatically as long as they are yours.

 

[BuchiTaton]

The Tlachtli for Aztecs was a bad choice in CIV6, certainly Mesoamerican Ballgame Court is a common regional element but Mayan ones are the more impresive and the ballgame itself have a more prominent role on their mythology making Maya the better option to have it as unique. Meanwhile the Tzompantli is also a common mesoamerican element but in that case the Aztecs had the more impresive ones (by far) making it better for them, Chinampa is another popular option but I would like the Calmecac School.

I think the design of Maya should be different from other science civs so what about?
- Maya, science + religion
- Korea, science + culture
- Babylon, science + military

 

[Zaarin]

- Korea, science + culture
- Babylon, science + military

I'd rather see Korea be culture + religion and Babylon be super-capital + science. I agree on Maya as science + religion.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I think the design of Maya should be different from other science civs so what about?
- Maya, science + religion
- Korea, science + culture
- Babylon, science + military

Babylon can be science + infrastructure but I agree on the rest. Assyria is another option for science + military. I'd also like for Arabia to keep science aspects too but focus more on religion.

 

[Zaarin]

Assyria is another option for science + military.

Assyria makes more sense as a culture/builder civ than a science civ IMO. It collected the scientific writings of the Sumerians and Babylonians, but it didn't really contribute to them significantly except in preserving them.

 

[Birch617]

The Tlachtli for Aztecs was a bad choice in CIV6, certainly Mesoamerican Ballgame Court is a common regional element but Mayan ones are the more impresive and the ballgame itself have a more prominent role on their mythology making Maya the better option to have it as unique. Meanwhile the Tzompantli is also a common mesoamerican element but in that case the Aztecs had the more impresive ones (by far) making it better for them, Chinampa is another popular option but I would like the Calmecac School.

I think the design of Maya should be different from other science civs so what about?
- Maya, science + religion
- Korea, science + culture
- Babylon, science + military

Maya could also be Science + Religion + Wonder building in my eyes

 

[Krajzen]

Maya 'should' definitely be Science often in those series (maybe not always), because it is the only American native civilization that has justified claims to sciencey bonuses. It's the only Precolombian culture that has actually developed 100% confirmed writing system - rest of Mesoamerica had more like proto - writing mixed with ideography, while Andes somehow functioned without writing at all (quipu was merely for arithemetics). It is the only one of them which developed something going in the direction of theoretical mathematics and science, beyond the level of "practical abilities" of rest of America (such as arithmetic -> architecture). So I'm all for it having science stuff

Honestly I have a feeling as if civ series already explored all general directions that Mayans could take. Well, unless we count "very late Mayan remnants waging desperate guerilla warfare against Spaniars", but I think it would be anticlimactic to almost everyone, it's like making Khmer civilization out of "dark ages of Cambodia" when the country was a tributary ball going back and forth between Siam and Vietnam.

 

[Zaarin]

Maya 'should' definitely be Science often in those series (maybe not always), because it is the only American native civilization that has justified claims to sciencey bonuses. It's the only Precolombian culture that has actually developed 100% confirmed writing system - rest of Mesoamerica had more like proto - writing mixed with ideography, while Andes somehow functioned without writing at all (quipu was merely for arithemetics). It is the only one of them which developed something going in the direction of theoretical mathematics and science, beyond the level of "practical abilities" of rest of America (such as arithmetic -> architecture). So I'm all for it having science stuff

I agree, and this is also why I champion a PNW tribe because they have the best argument for a Pre-Columbian culture civ. Aside from writing, the Maya also had advanced astronomy, arithmetic, and engineering so they're definitely deserving.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Quick Note: the Mayans were using the Zero in arithmetic/mathematic notation independently of and about 600 years before the first indication of it in (modern) Cambodia, from which in another 2-300 years it spread via India and the Middle East to Europe. They had also identified and named the same constellations that the Babylonians and other Mesopotamians had identified. Between their extremely accurate 'naked eye' observations and extremely precise positional numerical/arithmetic system, their astronomical calculations were more accurate than the "Old World's" - their estimate of the length of the lunar monthly cycle was more accurate than Ptolemy's and their calculation of the length of thesolar year was more accurate than that of the Spanish when they arrived!

As it happens, the four surviving Mayan Codexes all include astronomical almanacs or tables. That makes one wonder what other examples of Mayan scientific thought and theory are now simply missing.

 

[BuchiTaton]

I found interesting that the theme about Cambodia came to the talk since I see many similarities between Maya and Khmer as the best examples of "Cities in the Jungle" cultures. I suppose is because the similar enviromental challenges.

 

[Zaarin]

Weeeeelll, the Maya clear cut their jungle.

 

[Yudhisthira]

Quick Note: the Mayans were using the Zero in arithmetic/mathematic notation independently of and about 600 years before the first indication of it in (modern) Cambodia, from which in another 2-300 years it spread via India and the Middle East to Europe.

I m sorry but I m not aware of origin of zero in Cambodia & it's spread to India from there. Can you please provide source for this.

 

[Krajzen]

I found interesting that the theme about Cambodia came to the talk since I see many similarities between Maya and Khmer as the best examples of "Cities in the Jungle" cultures. I suppose is because the similar enviromental challenges.

Didn't both of them rise and collapse in very similar ways? I mean Khmer Empire and Classical - Yucatan - Maya

1) A tropical jungle region with an extreme climate and humidity is not really that conductive to early civilization, therefore no "cradle of civilization" participation here very early on
2) Climate changes across centuries and makes certain small area actually very conductive to agriculture and high/very high population density
3) Great civilizations appear, very high urbanization, population density, monumental architecture etc
4) Humans don't know anything about climate and ecological balance in those eras, so they just exploit everything as much as they can, up to the limit
5) Climate changes for the worse and because everything relied on very delicate balance, and humans didn't grasp that and used land to the max, everything collapses rapidly
6) Civilization in the entire area (Yucatan, Angkor) collapses, writing included, jungle grows over cities, less magnificent descendants of magnificent civilization continue in different areas; centuries later population density in those areas is still either mediocre (Angkor) or very low (Yucatan) in comparision with neighboring lands

It also reminds me of the way Pueblo and Missisipi civilization areas suddenly rose and utterly collapsed over span of several centuries, although here the problem was with too arid climate instead, and they have never achieved nearly the same sophistication as Maya and Khmer.
I don't know any more examples other than these four, although maybe I vaguely recall something less dramatic about civilization centre of gravity in Java moving from central to eastern across centuries.