How would you design Netherlands?

[Xandinho]

First of all, I don't like the current design of Netherlands in Civ6, it's one of the most boring civs to play as, imo. Wilhelmina is nice, but I'd prefer William the Silent. He seems more interesting to me. Also, abilities related to rivers are pretty meh to me, and there are a lot of civs that do this in some way. For the next interaction, I'd like to see Netherlands being a powerful sea trader, just like Portugal in Civ6. I think devs are capeble of doing a good work in differentiating Netherlands and Portugal.
What do you think?

 

[Zaarin]

Wilhelmina was a fun change, but I agree that she shouldn't be a staple. I also agree that Netherlands should be a maritime trade superpower. TBH I think both the Netherlands and Portugal should benefit from having a very small core territory, with the Netherlands focusing on trade and Portugal on puppeting city-states/minor civs.

 

[Phrozen]

Johan de Witt should be the leader.

 

[Zaarin]

Johan de Witt should be the leader.

The guy who was hated so much the protestors ate him? (Yes, yes, I know he was an effective leader. It's still a grimly hilarious story.)

 

[Patine]

The guy who was hated so much the protestors ate him? (Yes, yes, I know he was an effective leader. It's still a grimly hilarious story.)

Well, a group of members at Earl Browder (the then General Secretary of the Communist Party USA)'s rally the day after the Black Friday stock crash in 1929 apparently chanted, "eat the rich!"

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

The Netherlands are actually one of my favorite civs to play as. I don't mind the river bonuses as it does make sense for them, but I also agree that they should focus more on sea trade. Wilhelmina is also a great change, setting aside the agenda, but I agree that she doesn't need to be a staple leader.

I do think it was a shame that they didn't get any new ability when Monopolies and Corporation mode is activated, like being able to found a corporation earlier on harbor district, shipyards hold products etc.
If corporations come back in Civ 7 I'd like that to be their focus.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Well, a group of members at Earl Browder (the then General Secretary of the Communist Party USA)'s rally the day after the Black Friday stock crash in 1929 apparently chanted, "eat the rich!"

And P. J. O'Rourke picked up "Eat the Rich!" as a book title. As an historical event, I consider it right up there with the two Defenestrations of Prague: nothing exceeds like Excess, as they say . . .

Netherlands, if we really want to show them 'in their prime' (17th to early 18th centuries) should be all about sea trade, land reclamation, and a small but Elite army and navy. Their bonuses shouldn't really be about rivers as much as about turning coastal seas and marshes into good farmland, and their Trade Bonuses should revolve around both super-efficient trade routes (the Dutch Flyut was one of the best freight-carriers of the Era) and very lucrative banking and exchanges - the Amsterdam Bourse/stock exchange alone dominated European 'money markets' for decades.
As for leaders, Netherlands has some interesting choices from that period.
Maurice of Nassau and William 'the Silent' are classic military - Maurice practically invented modern infantry tactics and organization and if not a Dutch/Netherlands leader, should really be a Great General
Johan deWitt, on the other hand, is strictly a political/commercial type - he was lynched largely because his utter neglect of the navy led to military disasters for which he was rightly blamed.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

1. Netherlands should be led by persons from the Early Modern Era. either as Leader of legitimate country, or a rebellion leader. I don't agree with 20th Century leaderships much.
2. UU should be raiding ships. the Dutch favorite naval tactics were piracy and swooping attacks against enemy fleets.

Which archetecs of the Netherlands do you prefer?
- Civ 5
- Civ 6
- Humankind (I'm not really agree with VOC complex much, it serves more like Portuguese Factory (Feitoria) which Dutch were rivals to.)

 

[civilizationfanatic2000]

netherlands should be able to turn coastal tiles into land tiles

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Which archetecs of the Netherlands do you prefer?
- Civ 5
- Civ 6
- Humankind (I'm not really agree with VOC complex much, it serves more like Portuguese Factory (Feitoria) which Dutch were rivals to.)

Polders are a must. Hopefully next iteration they will be able to actually turn coast into land.

The VOC as a Bank replacement, or earlier Stock Exchange, I wouldn't mind either as another building alongside the Polder improvement.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Polders are a must. Hopefully next iteration they will be able to actually turn coast into land.

The VOC as a Bank replacement, or earlier Stock Exchange, I wouldn't mind either as another building alongside the Polder improvement.

Polder: UI, buildable on any tile of coastal water OR marsh, turns either into Grasslands.
VOC: UB, early Stock Exchange. Each one built also increases number of Trade Routes by 1.
UU: The term 'Frigate' was first applied to Dutch commerce raiders also called 'Dunkirkers' because they worked out of that port at about the time of the Spanish Armada, or 150 years before the 'real' Frigate type warship was introduced. A better candidate, though, would be the Great Frigates - 2 ships with 2 gun decks instead of 1 that for the Dutch took the place of the bigger Ships of the Line in the 17th century because they were much handier in the shallow waters of the Dutch coast.
So: Great Frigate - a Dutch Frigate replacement with increased combat factors in coastal water tiles.

Dutch: Trading Flyts: All Sea Trade Routes produce 2 x the normal bonuses of Production, Food or Gold.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

UU: The term 'Frigate' was first applied to Dutch commerce raiders also called 'Dunkirkers' because they worked out of that port at about the time of the Spanish Armada, or 150 years before the 'real' Frigate type warship was introduced. A better candidate, though, would be the Great Frigates - 2 ships with 2 gun decks instead of 1 that for the Dutch took the place of the bigger Ships of the Line in the 17th century because they were much handier in the shallow waters of the Dutch coast.
So: Great Frigate - a Dutch Frigate replacement with increased combat factors in coastal water tiles.

To be honest, a "frigate" that also worked like a privateer and raid tiles would be just as nice.

 

[Zaarin]

To be honest, a "frigate" that also worked like a privateer and raid tiles would be just as nice.

Everyone else was hiring privateers to raid the Dutch shipping.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

Polder: UI, buildable on any tile of coastal water OR marsh, turns either into Grasslands.
VOC: UB, early Stock Exchange. Each one built also increases number of Trade Routes by 1.
UU: The term 'Frigate' was first applied to Dutch commerce raiders also called 'Dunkirkers' because they worked out of that port at about the time of the Spanish Armada, or 150 years before the 'real' Frigate type warship was introduced. A better candidate, though, would be the Great Frigates - 2 ships with 2 gun decks instead of 1 that for the Dutch took the place of the bigger Ships of the Line in the 17th century because they were much handier in the shallow waters of the Dutch coast.
So: Great Frigate - a Dutch Frigate replacement with increased combat factors in coastal water tiles.

Dutch: Trading Flyts: All Sea Trade Routes produce 2 x the normal bonuses of Production, Food or Gold.

But most Frigates functions as Cruiser and not Ships of the Line. HK is more correct when representing Frigate.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

To be honest, a "frigate" that also worked like a privateer and raid tiles would be just as nice.

For sure, the original 'frigatten' were the Dunkirker privateers/pirates that scourged shipping throughout northern European waters, but the 'Dutch Pirate/Privateer' was a relatively short-lived phenomena of the late 16th, early 17th century. I'd rather emphasize the Dutch naval excellence of the 17th century in the Great Frigates (scenes like De Ruyter coming back to port with a broom tied to the mainmast of his flagship, signaling that he had "swept the sea" clean of enemies!) and the dominance of Dutch shipping and banking, which is still far more important to the Dutch economy than Tulips . . .

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

^ So 'Great Frigate' will be Dutch stands in for 'Ships of the Line' and will be faster as well?
And what shall US Navy 'Heavy Frigate' be a stands in of? SoTL (US Navy did have a couples of SoTL as well, including dysfunctional Four Decker USS Pennsylvania, too bad American SoTL didn't saw action so much, all (along with USS Merrimack which was a Frigate but not sure the same 'heavy' frigate like Constitution?) were ended up either dismantled or burned by the time of American Civil War to prevent the Confederacy access).

What should Dutch Great Frigate looks like? Raze-built Galleon like Civ6 De Zeven Provincien (which also evolved into SoTL, in fact DZP IS 17th Century iterations of SoTL which were nowhere comparable to Mid 18th C 'flatdecks' which were more familiar and associated with European definite sea control and significant reduction of piracy, though the 'definite' end of Caribbean Pirates were in the Steam Era with national navies adopted rifled guns and armored steam ships as well as point defense Heavy Repeaters (Gatlings and Nordenfelts), which effectively rendered oldschool pirates, and boarding actions obsolete (The last known boarding attacks were in the final stage of Boshin War, where Ezo Republic tried to capture Imperial Ironclad Kotetsu, and it failed due to Gatling point defense systems on board the said Ship, the last Letter of Marquee 'issued' was also in the late half of 19th Century in Latin America, in their border dispuite where one country didn't have a real navy but another did.)?

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

^ So 'Great Frigate' will be Dutch stands in for 'Ships of the Line' and will be faster as well?
And what shall US Navy 'Heavy Frigate' be a stands in of? SoTL (US Navy did have a couples of SoTL as well, including dysfunctional Four Decker USS Pennsylvania, too bad American SoTL didn't saw action so much, all (along with USS Merrimack which was a Frigate but not sure the same 'heavy' frigate like Constitution?) were ended up either dismantled or burned by the time of American Civil War to prevent the Confederacy access).

Since the American 'heavy frigates' of the post-Revolution were designed as fast and cheap substitutes for Ships of the Line, they and the Dutch Great Frigates would be comparable: slightly less than SoL firepower, but Frigate speed and maneuverability and, in the case of the Dutch ships, increased factors (speed, and maneuverability which equals combat power) in shallow, coastal waters, traits they inherited from the original Dunkirkers

There have been about 6 or 7 (one was renamed before it was completed) ships named USS Merrimack in the US Navy since 1798, but the frigate was a steam (or 'screw') frigate, part of a class of such ships built in the late 1850s. They carried 40 guns, so were comparable in size and power to the earlier Heavy Frigates but having shell-firing cannon, some rifled, had much greater firepower than the USS Constitution and her sister-ships.

 

[BuchiTaton]

Potentialy Netherland's design could overlaps with England's and Portugal's design so any suggestion should considers the three of them.

- DUTCH, exploit oversea trade rutes and luxury monopoly to built a "tall" homecity. Here the Polder is key to add space to the highly developed capital city (the small nation).

- ENGLISH, the top naval power for colonial expansion, even if redundant a Privater UU is perfect to cover the pirating part of english history (time for Queen Elizabeth I again! ).

- PORTUGUESE, the colonial explotiation could be represented by both Feitorias and Bandeirantes (that would works as CIV6 eagle warrior ).

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

^ Portuguese 'Nau' should double as trader but anyone plundering a trade route with Nau it will instead get into a combat and have a fair chance of losing. Enemy player must try thrice in ONE TURN to do a successful plunder OTHERWISE a trade nau returns at full health in the next.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Potentialy Netherland's design could overlaps with England's and Portugal's design so any suggestion should considers the three of them.

- DUTCH, exploit oversea trade rutes and luxury monopoly to built a "tall" homecity. Here the Polder is key to add space to the highly developed capital city (the small nation).

- ENGLISH, the top naval power for colonial expansion, even if redundant a Privater UU is perfect to cover the pirating part of english history (time for Queen Elizabeth I again! ).

- PORTUGUESE, the colonial explotiation could be represented by both Feitorias and Bandeirantes (that would works as CIV6 eagle warrior ).

But I guess not Spain?
If it were actually up to me I wouldn't necessarily give England a naval UU. I think a Royal Navy Dockyard that could build two ships at a time would suffice, similar to the current Venetian Arsenal, while their actual UU would be the Longbowmen. That would leave open the option for Dutch to either get a unique Frigate or Privateer.