Huge inflation

[acuoio]

I find it rather strange that corporations cost you money, rather than gaining commerce from them. It doesn't make sense.

I guess you can think of it like modern day Franchises. The country gains much more money by having Franchises outside the US. All the profits made by a franchise go the headquarters, not the country the franchise is in.

For example, lets say the US invents a new product X and begins selling that within the US. How much money is the US making off this new product? Right, zero. Now, if you start selling this to Europe, you will make money because Europe is giving you money in exchange. Within the US, money is just changing hands.

Corporations are a financial tool in my opinion, and not necesarrily a production/food enhancement.

 

[goonie61]

Wait a minute -- why is number of cities maintenance a negative number???

That makes no sense at all, the maintenance for cities is the distance maintenance plus the # of cities maintenance. This will never be a negative number, even if you have we love the king day. That will only make the total maintenance for that city zero not negative.

 

[Dejagore]

as its my first post on civfanatics, first of all i say salute to everyone

i have 113% inflation rate on monarch diff/ huge map/ epic speed. i guess its kinda to high too.

 

[mrt144]

Even though central banks tend to make fiat currencys which inflate like all get-out.

I find it odd that there is inflation at all in this game. The currency is not only metal backed but is metal itself. Inflation should be negligable.

Although gold was until a couple hundred years ago the standard between nations. It is possible for day to day stuff the citizens use a fiat currency.

but how easy is it to transfer metal? i mean that's the whole reason you go to fiat; to increase efficency of transactions, which compensates for inflation. and inflation under a well managed fiat currency has very low inflation.

 

[azaris]

In the late game if you have a huge empire, then inflation will cost you money. Face it. It was designed that way. Now that we're done with beancounting, let's look at the benefits of spreading corps to YOUR cities:

• Aluminum Co - Pretty self-evident. If you don't have aluminum but have coal, you want this. It's a common scenario.
  
• Civilized Jewelers Inc - Nearly pays for itself and provides a massive culture boost. You could probably pull off a surprise cultural victory with this corp alone.
  
• Mining Co - This is more tricky. The gold-to-hammers conversion ratio is not great, but since this corp is a competitor for many other corps, it is the muzzling corp. You get rid of your rival corps. I can easily see a situation where you are battling for "market share" with another civ. I suppose in an IW mega production city this could also be useful for that added base production.
  
• Standard Ethanol - Generates oil, a no-brainer there. You also get a science bonus for very common resources on most maps.
  
• Cereal Mills - Gives a food bonus again for very common resources on most maps. In the late game getting more food for a city is actually pretty difficult, since it involves (usually) farming over a town. So if you want to grow your cities extra large, this is an option.
  
• Sid's Sushi Co - On archipelago maps this is huge. Has the benefits of Cereal Mills but also adds a culture boost.

This is my first take on possible strategies, maybe you guys can find more ideas. Or alternatively we can all put paper bags over our heads, shout the mantra "IT'S BORKEN ROFLCOPTER!!!!!!!!1" and go back to playing Warlords.

 

[wayne07]

Actually i would think corporation in the present condition is meaningless.

The cost of a single foreign corp in my city can be 15 gold after courthouse. The max adv is probably ~3 x 4 resources = food/hammer/culture(higher). Adding inflation, the actual cost of a foreign corp = 15*2.75 (in late game) = 41.25 gold per turn. Even at 75%, its at 31 gold per turn! Inconsequential? I think not (especially when 15 is low end of the range).

Now, if we were to look at domestic corp..... we have slightly lower maintenance cost: lets say at 13 gold. Adding inflation, the cost of domestic corp = 35.75 gold. At 75%, its at 27 gold per turn. If the founding corp is in our wall street city, our 5 gold income become 15 gold per turn. In effect, we are paying 12 gold per turn per city for the effects.

If we were to put our corporation in other AI cities, we net 15 gold per turn of course. But bear in mind, we need gold in the first place to convert that AI city and production for the executive. Also, the gold needed will be higher IF there is already a competing corporation in place. 200-300 gold required for basic founding isn't really spare cash.... its around 20 turns before break-even ...

If we were to combine AI's insane mentality to spread their corporation far and wide and our need to spread ours.... we are basically forced to pay a minimum of 12-31 gold per turn x no of cities if we don't use state property. Late game, each city will probably net you 75-100 science on average if you are good. This represents a significant drop in your research effort. Is that worth it?

I definitely saw a marked improvement changing from non state property to state property when the AI start spamming my cities with executives in my game. I came to a conclusion though after 4 emperor games..... i CAN'T AVOID STATE PROPERTY NOW IN MODERN AGE if i don't prevent the AI in my continent from founding corporations.

 

[mrt144]

a no domestic corporations strategy have screwed free market and made SP inevitable.

free market = foreign trade routes, -25% maintenance for corps.
if the biggest benefit of free market is to help with domestic corps cost but the intended strategy is to ignore domestic corps what is the point other than trade routes? you're exposing yourself to risk even if you don't make any domestic corps.

mercantilism= no foreign trade routes, standard corp cost, +1 specialist. Under mercantilism you could spread corps to your heart's delight internationally, not even sweat the cost reduction since you arent going to have domestic corps anyway, (your's our competitor) and only lose out on trade (which could be huge)

state property = no corps. so you dont get any benefit from spreading but you can't be hurt either. you operate in your own little world away from potential risk with really good benefits.

now why on earth would you pursue a risky strategy with only potential payoff that will vary based on attitudes vs. a no risk strategy with an easily realized payoff?

 

[mrt144]

In the late game if you have a huge empire, then inflation will cost you money. Face it. It was designed that way. Now that we're done with beancounting, let's look at the benefits of spreading corps to YOUR cities:

• Aluminum Co - Pretty self-evident. If you don't have aluminum but have coal, you want this. It's a common scenario.
  
• Civilized Jewelers Inc - Nearly pays for itself and provides a massive culture boost. You could probably pull off a surprise cultural victory with this corp alone.
  
• Mining Co - This is more tricky. The gold-to-hammers conversion ratio is not great, but since this corp is a competitor for many other corps, it is the muzzling corp. You get rid of your rival corps. I can easily see a situation where you are battling for "market share" with another civ. I suppose in an IW mega production city this could also be useful for that added base production.
  
• Standard Ethanol - Generates oil, a no-brainer there. You also get a science bonus for very common resources on most maps.
  
• Cereal Mills - Gives a food bonus again for very common resources on most maps. In the late game getting more food for a city is actually pretty difficult, since it involves (usually) farming over a town. So if you want to grow your cities extra large, this is an option.
  
• Sid's Sushi Co - On archipelago maps this is huge. Has the benefits of Cereal Mills but also adds a culture boost.

This is my first take on possible strategies, maybe you guys can find more ideas. Or alternatively we can all put paper bags over our heads, shout the mantra "IT'S BORKEN ROFLCOPTER!!!!!!!!1" and go back to playing Warlords.

inflation costs you money, of course, but when the base calculation of FM is 3times as much that inflation hurts so much more and your benefits arent great. as the previous post i jsut made shows, running free market is stupid and pointless because the risk you incur in letting in competition negates any good that can come from it. but if you set up a domestic corp and run mercnatilism you lose out on all your international trade plus you pay standard rates of cost. so screw all that and go SP. you let everyone else fight with corps, you still get international trade, and you get good bonuses to boot. (the cost of running SP vs. corps is so much less from maintenance with inflation perspective)

and pointing out the flaws in a system and providing reasons isnt the same as just shouting about them.

 

[Dida]

Even though central banks tend to make fiat currencys which inflate like all get-out.

I find it odd that there is inflation at all in this game. The currency is not only metal backed but is metal itself. Inflation should be negligable.

Although gold was until a couple hundred years ago the standard between nations. It is possible for day to day stuff the citizens use a fiat currency.

Agreed. The currency in civ is gold itself. There shouldn't be inflation unless someone's just discovered huge quantity of gold somehwere.

 

[goonie61]

as its my first post on civfanatics, first of all i say salute to everyone

i have 113% inflation rate on monarch diff/ huge map/ epic speed. i guess its kinda to high too.

The problem isn't that the inflation is too high, but the maintenance from corporations gets added on top of what you are already paying for maintenance and then the inflation gets added on to that. So effectively you pay 3 times as much for your corporations because of inflation (i.e. 15+(15*(200/100))GPP if the inflation rate is 200%). This has to be a mistake, there is just no way of balancing this

 

[mrt144]

In the late game if you have a huge empire, then inflation will cost you money. Face it. It was designed that way. Now that we're done with beancounting, let's look at the benefits of spreading corps to YOUR cities:

• Aluminum Co - Pretty self-evident. If you don't have aluminum but have coal, you want this. It's a common scenario.
  
• Civilized Jewelers Inc - Nearly pays for itself and provides a massive culture boost. You could probably pull off a surprise cultural victory with this corp alone.
  
• Mining Co - This is more tricky. The gold-to-hammers conversion ratio is not great, but since this corp is a competitor for many other corps, it is the muzzling corp. You get rid of your rival corps. I can easily see a situation where you are battling for "market share" with another civ. I suppose in an IW mega production city this could also be useful for that added base production.
  
• Standard Ethanol - Generates oil, a no-brainer there. You also get a science bonus for very common resources on most maps.
  
• Cereal Mills - Gives a food bonus again for very common resources on most maps. In the late game getting more food for a city is actually pretty difficult, since it involves (usually) farming over a town. So if you want to grow your cities extra large, this is an option.
  
• Sid's Sushi Co - On archipelago maps this is huge. Has the benefits of Cereal Mills but also adds a culture boost.

This is my first take on possible strategies, maybe you guys can find more ideas. Or alternatively we can all put paper bags over our heads, shout the mantra "IT'S BORKEN ROFLCOPTER!!!!!!!!1" and go back to playing Warlords.

Your strategies are faulty.

1. you pay maintenance for corporations based on RESOURCES CONSUMED. having more resources simply means they will cost you more, but the revenue wont increase. since the culture benefits don't produce happiness they are somewhat limited. also the amount of gold going to HQ doesn't increase.
2. because you want to limit the cost of maintenance you might run free market. but now you are open to other corps where you have no hedge against the increase in undesired maintenance costs by having the HQ.
3. you are in competition with other corps for finite resources so you will not have huge amounts of resources to go around. this might limit the problem with maintenance, but simply having a corp costs money.
4. nothing nearly pays for itself because of the inflationary costs. the issue is that because you consume so many resources you have to pay for them. but the output of these resources doesn't hedge teh costs because a general decrease in the science slider isn't going to be made up by resource consumption output.

corps are like specialists that cost money.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

In the late game if you have a huge empire, then inflation will cost you money. Face it. It was designed that way. Now that we're done with beancounting, let's look at the benefits of spreading corps to YOUR cities:

• Aluminum Co - Pretty self-evident. If you don't have aluminum but have coal, you want this. It's a common scenario.
  
• Civilized Jewelers Inc - Nearly pays for itself and provides a massive culture boost. You could probably pull off a surprise cultural victory with this corp alone.
  
• Mining Co - This is more tricky. The gold-to-hammers conversion ratio is not great, but since this corp is a competitor for many other corps, it is the muzzling corp. You get rid of your rival corps. I can easily see a situation where you are battling for "market share" with another civ. I suppose in an IW mega production city this could also be useful for that added base production.
  
• Standard Ethanol - Generates oil, a no-brainer there. You also get a science bonus for very common resources on most maps.
  
• Cereal Mills - Gives a food bonus again for very common resources on most maps. In the late game getting more food for a city is actually pretty difficult, since it involves (usually) farming over a town. So if you want to grow your cities extra large, this is an option.
  
• Sid's Sushi Co - On archipelago maps this is huge. Has the benefits of Cereal Mills but also adds a culture boost.

This is my first take on possible strategies, maybe you guys can find more ideas. Or alternatively we can all put paper bags over our heads, shout the mantra "IT'S BORKEN ROFLCOPTER!!!!!!!!1" and go back to playing Warlords.

Leave aside ethanol and aluminum, since if you need resources, any way to get them is worth nearly any price.

Mining Inc--if the greatest use you can find for it is to disallow other corps, it seems to me corporations are espionage by another name. Counter-intuitive, and, imo, less fun than if it were a valid economic strategy.

Food corps--I love these. But--what is the benefit of having more population? To get more yield through working tiles or specialists. If inflation triples the cost of a nearly break-even corporation upkeep, those people are simply not worth the price, and you would be better off without it. No matter how much resources you get, because the cost scales.

Civ Jewlers may be able to pay for itself, making it a good way to get culture, yes. Unless people's observations about inflation are correct, in which case if you don't get that culture win, you may be crippling yourself.

Really, to me the inflation seems like an oversight. Because either the corporation strategy is balanced against state property in the 1900's and then nerfed by inflation as time goes by, forcing you to abandon your efforts, or it is over-powered initially and brought back into balance by inflation. It seems to be the former at the moment, but either way it seems a rather imprecise way to balance it.

edit: Just to be clear, this issue not-withstanding, I heartily recommed BtS to anyone who plays Civ 4.

 

[DisruptiveIdiot]

Agreed. The currency in civ is gold itself. There shouldn't be inflation unless someone's just discovered huge quantity of gold somehwere.

The currency in the game is just an abstraction to simplify diplomacy, the same way everything else is abstracted. It's not implausible to assume that the civlizations employ their own currencies that are subject to inflation.

The problem isn't that the inflation is too high, but the maintenance from corporations gets added on top of what you are already paying for maintenance and then the inflation gets added on to that. So effectively you pay 3 times as much for your corporations because of inflation (i.e. 15+(15*(200/100))GPP if the inflation rate is 200%). This has to be a mistake, there is just no way of balancing this

I agree, it's definitely a bug or oversight.

 

[Random Oracle]

Food corps--I love these. But--what is the benefit of having more population? To get more yield through working tiles or specialists. If inflation triples the cost of a nearly break-even corporation upkeep, those people are simply not worth the price, and you would be better off without it. No matter how much resources you get, because the cost scales.

I posted this in another thread, but there could be a strategy for these even under the current inflation. Basically, you put Sid's Sushi or whatever in small cities or cities that grow slowly because they lack excess food. You grow these to an approriate size so that they can support themselves without the extra food and then switch into State Property. In this case you get more population quickly through fast growth and only pay the expenses for a limited time.

 

[DrJambo]

inflation costs you money, of course, but when the base calculation of FM is 3times as much that inflation hurts so much more and your benefits arent great. as the previous post i jsut made shows, running free market is stupid and pointless because the risk you incur in letting in competition negates any good that can come from it. but if you set up a domestic corp and run mercnatilism you lose out on all your international trade plus you pay standard rates of cost. so screw all that and go SP. you let everyone else fight with corps, you still get international trade, and you get good bonuses to boot. (the cost of running SP vs. corps is so much less from maintenance with inflation perspective)

and pointing out the flaws in a system and providing reasons isnt the same as just shouting about them.

Well, I'm not yet convinced on this (yet).

Here's the details of my current game:

I'm the HRE
Large map
Epic speed
It's 1956
I've founded Creative Corporations
It's in 7 of my 19 cities
(These were selected based on where I thought I needed the and most)

Here's my finances in terms of costs:
Unit costs 99
Unit supply 3
City Maintenance 92
Civics 101
Inflation 175% x 295 = 512

Of the 92 city maintenance:
Distance to capital 27
No. of cities 36
Colony 1
Corporations 28

I have courthouses in ALL my corporation cities (-75% for HRE) and I'm running Free Market.

I'm able to running 50 % and the and benefits of the corporation, are to me, far outweighing the overall maintenance cost of the corporation.

Granted I probably don't need to, and indeed shouldn't, expand the corporation too much, but isn't that to be expected? The benefits are specific and as I see it, the corporation should only be placed in the most appropriate cities; not every city, and certainly not any city without a courthouse. I also founded the corporation in my most profitable city, one with the specific religion building and all basic economic improvements (alas no Wall Street unfortunately).

So, what's the deal? Seems ok to me for the moment - a fine balance which can easily be lost unless you're extremely careful. As to how the AI deals with the fine balance, God only knows.

 

[mrt144]

I posted this in another thread, but there could be a strategy for these even under the current inflation. Basically, you put Sid's Sushi or whatever in small cities or cities that grow slowly because they lack excess food. You grow these to an approriate size so that they can support themselves without the extra food and then switch into State Property. In this case you get more population quickly through fast growth and only pay the expenses for a limited time.

in which case you expose yourself to corporate invasion or limit your trade routes.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

While I like seeing data, the HRE is probably the least representative case. But anyway, how many hammers do you get in each city with the corp? It comes out to 11.8 gold per city (w/CC) right now.

 

[mrt144]

Well, I'm not yet convinced on this (yet).

Here's the details of my current game:

I'm the HRE
Large map
Epic speed
It's 1956
I've founded Creative Corporations
It's in 7 of my 19 cities
(These were selected based on where I thought I needed the and most)

Here's my finances in terms of costs:
Unit costs 99
Unit supply 3
City Maintenance 92
Civics 101
Inflation 175% x 295 = 512

Of the 92 city maintenance:
Distance to capital 27
No. of cities 36
Colony 1
Corporations 28

I have courthouses in ALL my corporation cities (-75% for HRE) and I'm running Free Market.

I'm able to running 50 % and the and benefits of the corporation, are to me, far outweighing the overall maintenance cost of the corporation.

Granted I probably don't need to, and indeed shouldn't, expand the corporation too much, but isn't that to be expected? The benefits are specific and as I see it, the corporation should only be placed in the most appropriate cities; not every city, and certainly not any city without a courthouse. I also founded the corporation in my most profitable city, one with the specific religion building and all basic economic improvements (alas no Wall Street unfortunately).

So, what's the deal? Seems ok to me for the moment - a fine balance which can easily be lost unless you're extremely careful. As to how the AI deals with the fine balance, God only knows.

thats 12 cities ripe for the picking by running free market. the AI should be spamming your empty cities as much as possible, and there lies the problem.

the real issue is by running FM and just working towards your own end you have only half the control on spreading corporations. just wait till later in teh game too.

 

[Random Oracle]

in which case you expose yourself to corporate invasion or limit your trade routes.

You're only exposed to corporate invasion as long as you're not running State Property. When you switch to SP, who cares how many cities foreign corporations have 'infected'? As for trade routes, I don't see how they're the issue here. Yes, Free Market gets one more but State Property still allows them and gives other very considerable benefits.

 

[mrt144]

and heres another thing to consider, the costs of those corps will increase in two ways: inflation and any net increase in resources. so although you may increase prooductivity that will cost much more.

so to retain the same costs you have to cut producton or simply deal.