Hurrying Great Library?

[Bad Brett]

It seems as many people here use their great leaders to hurry great library.

On sid level I can understand that, since it may be impossible to get otherwise, but even on deity you've got a fair chance to build it yourself without too much concern. The opponents rarely reseach literature and if you don't trade it and begin on your palace a few turns earlier you'll get most of the times. So why waste a SGL?

I'm having a hard time to handle higher difficulty levels than demigod, but on demigood level my favourite wonder is the temple of artemis. However, it's really hard to build that one yourself. If you aren't a religous civ and even better a warmonger, this wonder is almost too good to be true. Getting free culture in every city you capture... less resistans and expanded borders... the culture value doubles after 1000 year so if you get it really early you can dominate the world culturally in the beginning.

The pyramids kick ass but you rarely have time to waste a city that early by building a wonder. And the risk of losing the race is too high.

You can also save it for Sun Tzun or maybe JS bach cathedral, one of my favourite wonders.

So why WASTING in on the great library... a wonder you can build yourself most of the time, except those of you who are brave sid-players... on demigod level you can get the wonder before the other guys have researched literature...

 

[Kiech]

I assume you mean Scientific great leader...if you are lucky to get one. Anyways, here is my take:

It GUARANTEES that you will not be behind in science for the early game, assuming you are smart enough to go meet as many civs as you can. This alsoputs you in the trading lead so you can stay ahead in tech for a while. Now, if you pop a SGL, and you can grab the Pyramids or some other nice wonder, and there is little chance that the others won't be able to work on the library for a while, it might be better to grab the pyramids or some other important wonder. However, you can't be sure that you will actually be able to survive the cascade and still aquire the Library. If you want to save it for the Art of War, thats not a bad deal, but again, there is no guarantee of getting the Library. Its the safe bet.

 

[nullspace]

Building the GL yourself does cost 400 shields in your best city starting at a very early time in the game. Those are often better spent on settlers, workers, and units. 400 shields will get you 13 swordsmen or horsemen or settlers. IMO, settling or conquering more territory is better than getting some techs for free. And if you use those units to capture the pyramids, TOA, or GL, that's even better. Personally, I almost never build ancient wonders if I'm serious about doing well.

If I happened to beat the odds and get a SGL, I'd probably use it on the GL, since I wouldn't have started to build it. Pyramids are nice, but I usually already have granaries in the cities that need them. TOA is good, but even when you get it, you still have to worry about culture flips. It helps, but I still won't let my armies heal in captured cities far from my capital.

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

If you start with Alphabet and have a nice city with 10+spt right out of the box and growth potential (or enough growth elsewhere to join Workers), you are likely to get the GLib on Deity. But then, if I have that, I don't really need it, and a couple more cities and units are more worth to me. So, if I'm not sure to get it, and have a SGL at hand, I won't hesitate a second to rush the GLib instead of any other Wonder...

 

[screwtype]

What's the big deal with the great library anyhow? It only gives you a couple of free techs doesn't it? I've never bothered building the thing.

 

[homeyg]

It also corrupts new players' ability to trade properly. I never bother getting the GL either and I can do fine on Emperor.

 

[Siddhartha]

What's the big deal with the great library anyhow? It only gives you a couple of free techs doesn't it? I've never bothered building the thing.

No, it gives you every tech researched by two other civilizations (until you get education). It is one of the few wonders that I always go for.

 

[The Omega]

What's the big deal with the great library anyhow? It only gives you a couple of free techs doesn't it? I've never bothered building the thing.

what difficulty do you play on? On cheiften, it's not needed. On higher levels, or when your just moving up a level, it's vital.
Smilies!

 

[Aggie]

The Great Libray was NOT vital in almost all games I have played. You can win Sid games without one. It is merely a great wonder. I would not rush the Great Library when I am easily outresearching the AI. It then only slows down the tech pace, because the fastest researcher -me- ends researching at some point. So in these situations I would most likely wait until Sun Tzu comes available or rush the Pyramids if they still can be built.

However, when I'm not the one determining the tech pace I would probably pick The Great Library as my favorite wonder to rush. But only when I can't beat the AI otherwise, because I still would also like to have the Pyramids or Sun Tzu.

 

[screwtype]

Omega, I play on Monarch. I haven't played on any other level yet, I started out on Monarch because I usually find the standard level on strategy games too easy, but I've found Monarch to be pretty tough on Conquests. I have switched up to the "More Aggressive" level on Monarch though, as there isn't enough of a challenge on standard aggression IMO.

I didn't realize the GL gave you ALL the tech of two other civs, I thought it just gave two techs. Even so, I'm usually not that far behind other civs in tech research early in the game, so I doubt the GL would give me that many free techs.

 

[Turner]

Theory of Evolution gives two free techs. If you do it right, you can finish scientific method in one turn, switch your prebuild to ToE, and slingshot to Electronics and start working on Hoover Dam.

As for why the GL is so good, you let the AI research for you, and get the techs for free from them. This allows you to turn of Science spending, and you can use that money to get more units. Helps warmongers keep up in tech while keeping their army big.

 

[screwtype]

Siddhartha, are you saying it gives you all the techs researched by two other civs on an ongoing basis until you research education? Or does it just give you all the techs already researched by two civs at the time you get it?

If the former, I guess it would be worthwhile after all...

 

[Arathorn]

Any tech shared by two civs that you have contact with will "pop out" of the Great Library, until such time as you have Education. So, yes, it's ongoing. This allows a player with the Great Library to completely shut off research and let the Great Library keep him/her up in techs. The money can be used to rush infra or build an army. That's why many people like the Great Library so much.

Arathorn

 

[Theoden]

You can't say you're wasting an SGL if you an ancient age wonder worth 400 shields. Yes, you may been able to build it over a longer period but the huge amount of time that it takes even for a core city is used better elsewhere.
Personally i never build because I have better things to use my shields on in Ancient age but if I got an early SGL i would consider it.

 

[Bad Brett]

Actually, I find it better to let someone else build from time to time... Let's say that you are the celts, with a kick ass UU that lasts until the enemy get's riflemen... one option is to set science to ZERO after you get iron working and only pump out Gallic Swordmen. Then you fight until the enemy almost enter the industrial age... Now you use your remaining force to grab the city who built Great library... you don't even have to keep it, just have it for a turn and ALL techs that the others have will be yours, even the ones after theology. So what's the point with doing this? Well, instead of building libraries you can focus on weapons... You will get an enormous treasure, so you easily can upgrade all spearmen to riflemen in a single turn... The downside is that you'll miss a lot of culture, but I think this tactic is incredibly good on higher difficulty levels (if you have really good UU that is). Many people also seem to have a hard time to keep up with the researching in the second age, and this solves the problem and let you continue with the medicine path without too much concern.

So basicly: building it yourself means: every techs until education.

Capturing it: Getting all techs that the other have at the moment.

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

Also, you can research up to Cavalry/Muskets/Cannons without Education, so it's pretty feasable to capture the GLib late (works extremely well for Civs with Horse-based UUs; the 2 Civs with Cav-UUs are SCI, so those are not the best choice, but Arabs or China do really well here).

 

[Gargantutron]

for me, building wonders is a great fun part in this game. i try to build everyone. i use palace prebuild. i sometimes use small wonders as prebuilds. its simply fun to get wonders. sadly on sid level, one cant really expect to build more than 1 or 2 wonders in ancient era. and even that requires some luck.

middle ages i am usually able to build most of the wonders. i might miss the earliest ones, but the later middle age wonders are usually no problem. sun tzu is great yes, but its not that great... barracks are cheap.

a SGL i use for the best wonders, and the best are the ones with lots of culture. i like to have a cultural powerhouse. so if i get one, i use it for pyramids/great library/temple of artemis or what ever is available. i would never save a SGL for later. its better (more fun!) to get an extra ancient wonder, even if its just mausoleum of mausollos.

ancient wonders are great. they are built long before 0 AD, so they will quickly become 1000 years old and get double culture. and tourism.

 

[Bad Brett]

Also, you can research up to Cavalry/Muskets/Cannons without Education, so it's pretty feasable to capture the GLib late (works extremely well for Civs with Horse-based UUs; the 2 Civs with Cav-UUs are SCI, so those are not the best choice, but Arabs or China do really well here).

Why not the Iroquios or the Egyptians? Then you can upgrade to knight and later to cavalry... I came up with a weird stragedy.

1. Build Great Library.
2. Get 6 culture per turn and keep it until you get theology.
3. Give it to your WEAKEST opponent so that it will be in the middle of you territory.
4. Fight, fight, fight, and research to military tradition.
5. When it's time for the industrial age, take back the city! You'll get 12 culture per turn and all techs... I haven't tried this one yet though.

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

This strategy is called 'Great Library Elevator', and used for HoF games quite frequently (but considered not really honorable for SGs).

Why not Egypt/Hittites/Iros? Mainly because those have an ancient GA, resulting in a strong and developed empire early on, so they would miss theUniversities/Banks etc.
But the Knight-based UUs mean you'll have a lot of cash at hand, and a recently captured empire where you have to build the basic improvements first; after that, unleash your Cavs. But in general, it works for all Horse-UU Civs and the Vikings (because the don't need that much Cavs).

 

[Bad Brett]

This strategy is called 'Great Library Elevator', and used for HoF games quite frequently (but considered not really honorable for SGs).

Damn! So I wasn't first with this brilliant idea! I should've known! So you consider this as cheating?

By the way, why isn't there a section for tactics like this one on this page? A "dirty tricks" section or something... it would be fun to read. I consider these "minor bugs" fun. I can wake up in the middle of night and think "hey, that's how I'm gonna do it". This is something that has been improved very much in conquest. I never liked the original civ 3 to be honest.