I want to cancel the vassal states, damn it!

[Minmaster]

OK this vassal state thing is stupid, because there seems to be no freaking way of canceling the crap. In my current game, I left Isabel with 1 city and let her beccome my vassal state. I was thinking later on I can take that city and finish her off. But I wait for like 200 years and theres no freaking way to make her become independent again! that b*tch wouldnt free herself. so what happens later? the #1 military civ saladin, who was my best friend for centuries decides to declare war on isabel and in turn saladin declares war on my ass. i have no chance against his military might, but i never thought we would fight because we were such good friends. so please, make it so that master can cancel vassal state if they want to. i had to play for centuries for her to declare free state which she never had the nerve to do.

 

[TracerBullet]

If they capitulate, they can't leave unless you demand their only resource of something, which results in a war if they refuse.

Read your manual before you complain.

 

[jimbob27]

You shouldn't have accepted her as a vassal. A vassal with 1 city can't offer you anything, so you should have finished her off.

 

[Wodan]

Mebbe so, Jimbob. But his underlying point is still valid.

Story = makes sense you can't cancel a vassal relationship.

Gameplay = makes you regret the relationship, that you didn't finish him off. The benefits are too minor, or too subtle. And the disadvantages, when/if they happen, are a smack in the face.

For example, my last game. I was buddies with Roosevelt most of the game. I went out of my way to keep him friendly. Then, out of no-where he decides to attack one of my vassals. WTH? Is he stupid? He didn't decide to attack ME, but that's de facto what happened.

Either the AI needs to be improved (in regard to the vassal relationship), or else you need to be alerted when certain things happen and you need to be able to cancel the relationship. Or both.

Wodan

 

[Minmaster]

If they capitulate, they can't leave unless you demand their only resource of something, which results in a war if they refuse.

Read your manual before you complain.

The problem is they had nothing for me to demand. so they never refused and stayed peaceful. i checked every turn if i can demand a resource. i demanded money every turn in hopes of pissin her off to leave vassalage but she wouldnt.

i had about 30 some odd cities to her 1 capitol city, yet i felt like i was her b*tch. the patch better address all these vassal state problems. i think its a good idea but executed with careless planning by firaxis.

 

[Minmaster]

You shouldn't have accepted her as a vassal. A vassal with 1 city can't offer you anything, so you should have finished her off.

in hindsight i should have. but im weak hearted and felt sorry for the b*itch. jk.

i went to war with her once before that and that time I was forced to accept peace with her because i dragged someone else into the war on my side and isabel capitulated to him before my war with her was even over.

so even though we were mutually attacking same enemy, isabel capitulates to my ally and ruins my plans to take more of isabel's cities. this is plain dumb, although not as dumb as not being able to cancel capitulation.

 

[Innawerkz]

This *IS* a problem - especially in a multi-player game.

Had one human player Capitulate to me, which suited me at the time because it was a pretty drawn out war already, and a second front had begun a few turns earlier. Once my Vassal, he immediately started building wonders/culture on our shared border while I was fighting 2 other players (I was tech & military leader, so they ganged me). Once I subjugated another player, I managed peace with the other and began the 'healing process' only to discover two of my border cities were 75% wrapped in his culture and no way to stop him from doing it. I actually had to negotiate with a weak rival - gifting a small advanced army with some resources - to attack & burn the oppressing city.

Shouldn't have to do that.

 

[Minmaster]

If they capitulate, they can't leave unless you demand their only resource of something, which results in a war if they refuse.

Read your manual before you complain.

this is dumb because:

1. the civ might not have any resource for you.

2. they might never refuse even if they do have something.


basically my point is, masters should be able to cancel.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

A gopod thing might be allow the master to cancel a Vasslage (but not a Capitulation) on a 10 turn notice. (if they are at Peace with everyone)

As for a Capitulation, I'm pretty sure That should be harder to break... Perhaps if the Master Offers a Capitulated civ a Vassal relationship, then if the Capitulated Civ Accepts, it becomes like a peace based vassalage, more breakable by both Master and Vassal.

That would allow the situation where both Master AND Capitulate want to break the arrangement... it could get broken...
Step 1 change from Capitulation into Vassalage, [requires Master AND Capitulated to agree]
Step 2 Establish peace with other Civs
Step 3 Master Cancels Vassalage (becomes 10 turn "temporary Vassalage")

 

[DJMurtz]

I have the same vassal problem. However, my vassal still has some towns and had 25% pop. compared to me. I was really getting sick of the vassal so took drastic measures, I went back to slavery, grew a large army using the slave function which shrunk my total population drasticly leaving him with 54% of my population... Now, according to the game guide, this should break the vassalage, but it doesn't? Is there anything else I should do before the vassal will break relations with me or is this just the way it's supposed to be, meaning the vassal _may_ cancel the deal if he want's since he has more population, but doesn't have nessecarily have to (understandibly, considering my huge army waiting at his doorstep by now... )

 

[yavoon]

Mebbe so, Jimbob. But his underlying point is still valid.

Story = makes sense you can't cancel a vassal relationship.

Gameplay = makes you regret the relationship, that you didn't finish him off. The benefits are too minor, or too subtle. And the disadvantages, when/if they happen, are a smack in the face.

For example, my last game. I was buddies with Roosevelt most of the game. I went out of my way to keep him friendly. Then, out of no-where he decides to attack one of my vassals. WTH? Is he stupid? He didn't decide to attack ME, but that's de facto what happened.

Either the AI needs to be improved (in regard to the vassal relationship), or else you need to be alerted when certain things happen and you need to be able to cancel the relationship. Or both.

Wodan

haha be able to cancel the relationship. thats dumb, u agreed to defend him in exchange for him giving in prematurely and letting u focus elsewhere. dont want the exchange? dont agree to vassals. certainly just being allowed to leave at ur leisure is silly.

 

[FastWorker]

You could try to culture flip him. I once had a vassal uncapitulate from me when he got down to zero culture.

 

[GoldenWheels]

haha be able to cancel the relationship. thats dumb, u agreed to defend him in exchange for him giving in prematurely and letting u focus elsewhere. dont want the exchange? dont agree to vassals. certainly just being allowed to leave at ur leisure is silly.

Why is that silly?

 

[Bushface]

My views on vassalage :-
(1) If another civ offers to become your vassal, refuse to accept the offer. As things stand, this is the only chance you get to avoid the vassal state being hung round your neck like a stinking millstone.
(2) Hope that Firaxis can, will, and do patch the vassalage system so that the master gets some real benefit from having vassals. Or alternatively chop it right out of the game.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

I have a quick question on this subject. Do your vassals automatically vote with you in UN Elections? Anything from passing acts to voting for diplomatic victory. That's a good reason to keep a vassal around even if your stuck with them forever as long as they have more than ONE CITY LEFT. That plus having a military buffer shows that vassals do have a nice place in Warlords imho.

 

[LouieLocutus]

I agree, Vassals do have their place in warlords. I have a map where I control the entire southern part of one continent with a vassal buffer nation in between two medium sized militarily geared enemies. I move defensive units into place in the vassals cities while building improvements in my own cities. The vassal has all my technology so when an enemy does attack it attacks two civs with modern military. Also the UN point is correct, as far as I have experienced all my Vassals vote for me as UN secretary-general.

 

[yavoon]

Why is that silly?

because if that were true then the only logical conclusion the other side should make everytime is to never become ur vassal. now u can program the computer to be dumb if u want. but IMO taking on the vassal should atleast have a veil of benefit for the other side.

 

[Gunner10]

because if that were true then the only logical conclusion the other side should make everytime is to never become ur vassal. now u can program the computer to be dumb if u want. but IMO taking on the vassal should atleast have a veil of benefit for the other side.

yavoon, if we're talking about capitulation - no, there should not be ANY benefit. The reason sides capitulate in real world, is because everyone (except for "samurai" cultures) wants to stay alive rather than be obliterated. The fact your nation simply goes on existing is big enough benefit. In game's terms, Capitulation = loss, that's why in single player human players cannot capitulate (they can just stop playing the game!).

In light of that statement, I think further problems exist with AI when it capitulates. Not only things like resources need to be available for demand by the victor, but techs as well. In one of my games, Zulus had 1 city left (their capital) and offered capitulation to me together with 1 tech. They still had 3 techs I didn't, so I thought once they capitulated to me, I'd be able to demand those as well ... I was wrong. So not only I couldn't declare war on them - I couldn't even demand, or trade for, the techs I needed!

Either the AI needs to be improved (in regard to the vassal relationship), or else you need to be alerted when certain things happen and you need to be able to cancel the relationship. Or both.

Definitely agree. If in a hypothetical world, Britain is best friends with Spain, and Portugal is the latter's vassal, there's no way Britain would declare war on Portugal if that caused an immediate war with their best friend!

 

[Gunner10]

I have the same vassal problem. However, my vassal still has some towns and had 25% pop. compared to me. I was really getting sick of the vassal so took drastic measures, I went back to slavery, grew a large army using the slave function which shrunk my total population drasticly leaving him with 54% of my population... Now, according to the game guide, this should break the vassalage, but it doesn't? Is there anything else I should do before the vassal will break relations with me or is this just the way it's supposed to be, meaning the vassal _may_ cancel the deal if he want's since he has more population, but doesn't have nessecarily have to (understandibly, considering my huge army waiting at his doorstep by now... )

Not only the population needs to be at 50%, but also vassal's territory size needs to be at 50% of yours. Read it under here:
http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/warlords/#vassals

 

[DrewBledsoe]

A gopod thing might be allow the master to cancel a Vasslage (but not a Capitulation) on a 10 turn notice. (if they are at Peace with everyone)

As for a Capitulation, I'm pretty sure That should be harder to break... Perhaps if the Master Offers a Capitulated civ a Vassal relationship, then if the Capitulated Civ Accepts, it becomes like a peace based vassalage, more breakable by both Master and Vassal.

That would allow the situation where both Master AND Capitulate want to break the arrangement... it could get broken...
Step 1 change from Capitulation into Vassalage, [requires Master AND Capitulated to agree]
Step 2 Establish peace with other Civs
Step 3 Master Cancels Vassalage (becomes 10 turn "temporary Vassalage")

Best idea I've yet heard on the subject.