I'm going slightly nuts here...

[Von Naumann]

I'm trying my hardest to win at Regent level (and I've even stacked the deck), but so far I just CANNOT seem to be able to get out in front of the AI with respect to research and stay there. A couple of them, at least, seem to be catching, and passing me, so that when I get "to the middle of the film", I'm behind the 8-ball. I can generally arrange it so that I've got enough money coming in, but I'm just missing on the more effective wonders (Sun Tzu, Leonardo's, Newton's, U.N.), that help so much. What do I need to do to kick these guys' asses???

 

[MrRandomGuy]

Posting a saved game will help us be able to determine how to do it best.

Generally when the AI is out researching you, the best bet is to lower your science rate to 0% and play the middleman. Buy techs from the AI that is discovering them first and sell them to another AI who isn't researching as fast.

Another way is to manipulate the AI civs into starting a war with each other. AI's that are at war will put more focus on their troops and less on wonders or research, though not always. I've had a few games where the AI stupidly tries to build a wonder when I'm at war with them and have taken several of their cities.

 

[Aabraxan]

MrRandomGuy is right about posting a save. However, if the AI is out-researching you at Regent, I'd bet on some of the common mistakes that I've seen. In no particular order, they include:
1) Too many structures. Just because you can build something doesn't mean that you should. Here's the mantra I learned when I first started playing C3C: Remember that a city needs nothing to survive. The question to ask is what the empire needs for the city to have.
2) Not enough workers. Workers increase food, gold, and production. Shoot for 2 workers per city. You can get by on 1.5 if industrious. Don't hesitate to buy or trade for workers from the AI. (100-110 gold is the going rate in my games.
3) Not enough roads. Roads add +1 gpt to each worked tile. Multiply that out over a dozen cities or more and it begins to add up.
4) Leaving troops in every city while in Republic. There's no MP effect for troops in Republic, so a spear sitting in the capitol, far from your borders, is doing nothing but taking up one unit support slot. Get him out and put him to work.
5) Wrong choice of government. If you want to speed up research, Republic is the way to go. Not that you can't research in Monarchy, but research is where Republic really shines. +1 gpt to each worked tile. Add that to the +1 gpt for each road, multiply that out, and it adds up quickly.

 

[vmxa]

To give an example of the towns and building issue. Lots of players will start up libs in nearly all of their towns as soon as they can, after they get Lit.

This seems like a good plan as you want the science and it gives culture. The problem is that you are going to be building an 80 shields (for most civs) structure in towns with 1 to 3 shields per turn.

They are small towns and will not have many beakers, so 50% of 1 is rounded to zero. If it is corrupt, it may never make many beakers. Wait for the town to be able to use a lib and it will likely be able to build it faster at that point. At least 4 beakers, net. Better for 8-10 beakers.

You do that for several structures and you are really slowing your economy. Some towns should never have libs, temples or courts. Just too corrupt, let them be farms.

That and lack of workers and not using workers effectively are big items. You also have to have an empire of decent size. If they have 15 towns and you have 6, it is hard to keep up. You should out manage them, but not if they are much larger in the first two ages.

 

[Quintillus]

Some good hints. I'd say, generally, several things really help optimizing research:

1. Having all your tiles that are being worked be roaded (or nearly all if your cities are growing rapidly). The +1 GPT really makes a difference.
2. Building libraries liberally in cities where they make a difference. vxma is right that they aren't effective in every city. But if you've got a city with 8 beakers and no library, that's hurting science, and it had better be building something important if it isn't building a library. Once you get education, roll out universities quickly in cities where they're cost effective (15+ science after the library, slightly less is OK).
3. Building Marketplaces, and to a lesser extent banks. That extra 50% tax can mean the difference between 50% and 70% science, and that adds up over the long term.
4. Making sure your cities are growing. Build Aqueducts where your cities have room for growth, preferably fairly early, and reap the extra commerce/science. This also helps with military support, saving you more money. As a related note, try not to go above support limits (or too far above if in Republic). A town only gives 1 unit support in Republic, but a city gives 3. If your average city gives 2.5, you may well have 0 unit costs; if your average is 1.1, you'll probably be paying for your troops.

Since you say that it's midgame that you fall behind, my guess is you either have too few roads, you don't have many marketplaces, you have few libraries (or almost no universities), or your unit support costs are way too high - or more than one of those. Having too few cities, as vxma, could also explain it. It's not impossible to keep up with a small empire, but it's certainly more challenging.

Another tip is to be liberal in trading techs when trying to catch up, particularly when you have many rivals, and to grab techs the AIs don't have to trade and play catch-up. The AIs trade a fair amount at Regent, and if you don't trade some you'll struggle to keep up. On the other hand, if you are first to Currency, for example, you may be able to get 4-5 techs for it. Even if each deal is favorable to your rival, in the end each rival gets 1 tech and you get 4-5. This can help you get from backwards to average fairly quickly. Once you get ahead, you can be more stingy with the tech trading.

Republic does vastly help, providing you keep unit support and war weariness in check. But if you really get rolling, you can keep up with Monarchy.

Wonders shouldn't be necessary to keep up. They do help with free maintenance - 10 GPT for free Barracks is money in the bank. But few have a major impact on science rate (with a few exceptions, such as Copernicus's Observatory when you have 3 cities).

 

[Von Naumann]

This is a lot to ponder. I'll do that and come back...

 

[nyarmondt]

I have the same situation in Monarchy level, but I find Regent a relatively satisfying difficulty.

Now, most people will advise you go as a Republic... But due to quite a lot of AI's not caring wether you've been a good neigbour or not, Monarchy is - in my humble opinion- the better option. But that's also because I hardly play Religious civ's... Their bonus of having 1-turn-anarchy when changing government is good for an "adaptive politics" playing style.

Eventhough Economics gives access to one of THE best wonders, I'ld rather beeline to Mil. Tradition, because the cavalry is just awesome & it will be your main unit for a long time in the game. If you are coaxed into a war, you know you'll have the men to break their spirit.
When their initial assault has been pummeled into oblivion, then you just march your powerfull stacks (consisting of cannons, musket men, cavalry & the odd med. infantry) towards their doors, and you knock really hard

One of the biggest problems in this game is in how much corruption can cripple your empire. To counter this, being in a republic isn't the only way. You can tone down the corruption levels by building courthouses. Don't be skimpy on them, they'll save you tons of - well, everything. Build them in every city you have, no matter how small. (Though I'm pretty sure expert Monarch+ level players will undoubtely correct me for saying this - but on Regent it's not a bad move)

Other buildings like marketplaces, banks etc., you only need in cities with a 6+ population, as the return of those is too small in your tiny villages.

But most of all, don't be afraid to do some research trading. The AI's do it all the time between themselves anyhow, so you better do it too. Also, if you trade a tech with 1 AI, trade it also with the others you know, otherwise you'll miss out on whatever stuff those guys are giving for it - and which would go to the first AI you just gave it, because sure as hell he is going to trade it.

And while wonders are shiny and you want them as badly as Gollum wants the One Ring, they are not your main goal. If you do decide to build them, be careful which one to build though. The only wonders I care for are these:
- Sun Tszu's Art of War: free barracks until endgame, who could say no to that?
- Smiths Trading company: No upkeep for trade buildings? Ooooh ye$$$!
- Temple of Artemis: Eventhough made obsolete by Education, free temples that make your citizens happy & give you a cultural shield is nothing to shy away from.
These are the ones that are mostly on my menu, but the Temple is only optional, as it is only a temporary wonder.

Offcourse, the best thing of my strategy is that you don't have to be afraid of when a war is going to happen (and that's a given). And wars are good, because it will give you a Military Great Leader at a certain moment in time, with which you'll create an army. Once you have an army, you'll be near invincible - untill the others invent Flight. But with a bit of luck, by that moment, you'll have half or more of the planet all for yourself...

 

[Von Naumann]

Looking back I realize that I didn't really provide enough inside information with respect to the "strategy" I'm playing. First of all, when I mentioned that I stack the deck... well, I stack the deck with the CivIII editor. I load the civ characteristics, so that not only is Germany Scientific and Militaristic, they're also Industrious, Seafaring, Religious, Agricultural, and Expansionist. Instead of 2 free techs, I have four: to include iron working and map making (gives me a bit of a jump on the Great Lighthouse. I'm playing the total regicide version (where, if you wipe out all of a civ's kings you wipe out the civ), so I use my seven Bismarcks plus the expansionist scout to explore the world. This usually gives me a leg up on the goody-hut techs, but not always. I'm frequently able to reach feudalism before anyone else, and, as often as not, I can develop Sun Tzu first (for the free barrackses). I like The Great Wall, but don't think it's essential. I like to have The Lighthouse, Art of War, and the U.N. (gives me political control). The Wall and The Library would be nice. Oh, and Copernicus's Observatory and Leonardo's Workshop are nice force multipliers. I set my Science slider at 90% at the beginning and bring it down when I start losing money, although if I'm close to the jump to the Industrial Age, I'll run it up to 100% (yes, deficit spending; I lose things but if all goes well I can get them back). I aim for communism as my government choice (it seems to have the lowest unit costs), and I try to keep track of relative military strength. Still, it gets really discouraging when I so frequently see the other civs (at least one) with military tech (and strength) greater than mine. I'm not much of a political animal, and I tend to take Bismarck's approach: i.e., blood and iron. I don't choose which civs are my opponents (Random) and, so far, have limited them to 6, and hope that I'll get popped onto a continent (huge world, 70% water) with only one. Also, it seems that all the other civs must f**k like rabbits, because they grow faster than I seem to be able to, even if I set up one or two towns to be settler pumps. It's kind of frustrating, ya know???

 

[Von Naumann]

I rather figured that when the other civs are at war with each other it slows them down. Question is, how do I manipulate them into going to war with each other???

 

[Von Naumann]

To vxma and Quintillus: good suggestions. I should point out that lack of roads is not a problem, and I've recently adopted a mini-mantra: get your roads built. I usually only build one worker per new town but I can change that. Also, my initial build order is: defenseman (spear, pike, etc.), settler, worker, barracks (until/unless I get the Art of War), then military units. Perhaps it would be wise to build an aqueduct early on (that boosts growth doesn't it?). Like the idea of libraries in bigger communities (6+???), and universities. Oh, and whenever I make contact with other civs, I always compare their techs to mine. If they have something I want, I may try to deal for it, but generally I don't.

 

[Von Naumann]

My mistake. I'm playing at the Monarch level! World is Continents, with 60% water. Game parameter (one of 'em) is Mass Regicide. Cultural victory is disabled.

 

[Theov]

I can't make a diagnosis without a patient.
Post. A. Save.

... but ok, from what I read here:

1: build more workers. Every tile your people are working should be developed (mine/irrigation + road). About 1.5 to 2 workers per town you have will do this.
2: All cities should be connected with each other.
3: Aqueducts provide fresh water. Fresh water (aqueduct/river/lake) allows a city to grow beyond 6. So building a city next to a river or lake saves you the hassle of building an Aq.
4: you're focusing on wonders too much. You don't NEED a Barracks in all cities. Only in the cities that produce military (or are close to the front line)
5: libraries are only interesting for cities that produce 4 bulbs or more. (libs require maintenance, so building it before you have 4 bulbs gives you 1 light bulb, but you pay 1 gold per turn (gpt) for it.)
6: Manipulate a war: say A wants to slow down B and C and only needs one city because it has Iron. ( B is situated between A and C) A makes a pact with B to attack C. A takes the Iron and only sticks to defending it. War rages between B and C along the border, but A is safe away from C, and doesn't really participate in the rest of the war.
7: The Great Wall? Really? Why? "Doubles effects of city walls and attack strength vs. barbarians."
You don't even need to build walls in the first place. Let alone double their strength. And barbs? You shouldn't need a wonder to get rid of those.
8: Uhm... you say Feudalism? Communism? Wouldn't you try Monarchy or Republic as soon as you have some economy going? Despotism is a leaded ball you need to get rid off practically ASAP.

 

[lucky duck]

Maintaining the tech lead is not too hard on Monarch. The most important thing to remember (and this is true for all difficulties) is to research horizontally, never vertically. You want to research in a straight line so that you will have monopoly techs. It should be noted that techs lose a lot of their value when they are known by two or more civs. So you should sell techs when you have a monopoly (or not sell them at all, depending on what your strategy is), and buy techs when they are known to two or more civs. Here's my advice:

Start a new game. Choose a civ that starts with Alphabet. Iroquois are a good choice because they are also Agricultural, and their UU is good throughout the Middle Ages.

The only "deck stacking" you'll need to do is selecting opponents that do not start with Alphabet. If you really want to make the AI weak, select Expansionist civs and turn off barbarians.

You must start on a river because of the food and commerce bonuses. If you don't start on a river, restart.

Build your capital on the very first turn. Research writing at 100%. On Monarch you should be able to get it in about 30 turns. Do not trade Alphabet at first. Once a civ or two has discovered Alphabet, you can trade it to the others for Bronze Working, Warrior Code, Masonry, or whatever else you want.

You will be the first to discover Writing. Don't trade it to anyone. You have two choices on what to do next:

1) Research Code of Laws at 100%. Then research Philosophy at 100%. Choose The Republic as your free tech and switch to it immediately. You should be able to trade for everything that the other civs have, and you won't have to give up The Republic.

Start researching Currency because it is the last required tech that the AI researches in the Ancient Age, and you should be able to get it first. The Republic is your ace in the hole. You should be able to broker it for all remaining AA techs. When you reach the Middle Ages, research Monotheism, Theology, and Education. You should be able to trade for Feudalism and the other techs.

2) Start a prebuild in one of your cities using Palace or Granary. Have all your workers build mines in this city. Once the land has been improved, have the workers join the city. Use the entertainment slider to prevent civil disorder. You would like production to be about 15 shields per turn.

Research Philosophy at 100%. Select Literature with your free tech. Build The Great Library. Stop researching all together. As soon as you acquire The Republic, switch to it. Use your cash to rush marketplaces, then libraries (don't forget about embassies, too. Once you see who your tech competitors are, it's fun to use your free techs to get the other AI to go to war with them). If the other civs are selling workers, just give them an AA tech for them.

Once you acquire Theology, research Printing Press. It will be another monopoly tech for you, you will be the first to trade contacts, and it will give you a head start on the monopoly techs (and wonders) at the top of the tech tree.

No matter which route you go, remember to keep expanding. More land means more population, luxuries, and resources. I usually grab as much land as possible then fill it in with more cities. It's best to end up with cxxc city placement so that all the tiles will be worked quickly. Build warriors, and rush spearmen and/or archers in border towns. Shoot for 1.5 workers per city.

The only buildings you need are marketplaces and libraries (I like building a granary in my capital on the first turn, but only when barbarians are off). Later on as a peaceful tech broker you will need universities and banks. Always have your research slider set to either 0% or the maximum percent that is possible without going bankrupt. The lone scientist technique is not good on Monarch because you will acquire that tech through research or trade before the 50 turns are up.

You are well on your way to a diplomatic victory. Your biggest threat will be jealous civs demanding techs from you. You will be so far ahead in tech that you may decide to forego universities and banks, upgrade your units, build a big military, and win the game by domination.

 

[Aabraxan]

This changes things rather dramatically.

Looking back I realize that I didn't really provide enough inside information with respect to the "strategy" I'm playing. First of all, when I mentioned that I stack the deck... well, I stack the deck with the CivIII editor. I load the civ characteristics, so that not only is Germany Scientific and Militaristic, they're also Industrious, Seafaring, Religious, Agricultural, and Expansionist. Instead of 2 free techs, I have four: to include iron working and map making (gives me a bit of a jump on the Great Lighthouse.

And you're STILL getting beaten in the science race?!? Are you giving any of the other civs these kinds of advantages?

. . . . I aim for communism as my government choice . . . .

What do you do between 4000 BC and the discovery of communism? If you're staying in despotism all that time, there's one of your problems.

 

[MrRandomGuy]

I rather figured that when the other civs are at war with each other it slows them down. Question is, how do I manipulate them into going to war with each other???

I'll use one of my games as an example. I play the Russians and am located on a medium sized island. The Americans are half a world away from me and demand tribute. I refuse and they declare war. Immediately I enlist everyone who knows the Americans in an alliance against them.

Sometimes the AI does it on their own. Sometimes all it takes is refusing to give tribute. If you're desperate for a distraction, just declare war on a civ that isn't anywhere near you and bribe the other AI civs into dogpiling them.

 

[Aabraxan]

I rather figured that when the other civs are at war with each other it slows them down. Question is, how do I manipulate them into going to war with each other???

You can bribe them with gold, tech, or luxuries. That may be more difficult if you're behind in gold and/or tech.

As a second example, you can use peace treaties. For example, let's say I'm playing as the Chinese. I'm at war with Russia. After I've beaten on them for a while, I declare war on the English. I then go to Russia and offer them a PT, with an Alliance against England as part of the deal. If Russia accepts the deal, they'll immediately DOW England. I'm particularly clever, then I'll turn around and make the opposite deal with England in about 20 turns, getting England to DOW Russia. . .

Finally, the one and only reason I ever make an MPP: THE MPP OF DOOM!!! I make an MPP with one or more civs, then goad some other civ to DOWing me and attacking me on my own turf, then watch the fireworks.

 

[Quintillus]

To vxma and Quintillus: good suggestions. I should point out that lack of roads is not a problem, and I've recently adopted a mini-mantra: get your roads built. I usually only build one worker per new town but I can change that. Also, my initial build order is: defenseman (spear, pike, etc.), settler, worker, barracks (until/unless I get the Art of War), then military units. Perhaps it would be wise to build an aqueduct early on (that boosts growth doesn't it?). Like the idea of libraries in bigger communities (6+???), and universities. Oh, and whenever I make contact with other civs, I always compare their techs to mine. If they have something I want, I may try to deal for it, but generally I don't.

The build order sounds decent, until the barracks part. Even if you don't have Sun Tzu's, you don't need a barracks in every city, nor does every city need to produce military units. Some will, but in cities that will be high-commerce, a library will make more sense; in cities by lots of water, a harbor might make more sense as a first building. Aqueducts are good for getting cities above size 6, but if you want to crank out settlers/workers and expand quickly, you should be focusing on granaries as your first building in most cities.

If I'm playing a scientific civilization, a library will often be my first building in a city. At 40 shields, they're cheap - the cheapest culture unless you are also religious. And even if you only get 1 extra beaker, it's worth the maintenance cost. As the city grows and gets more beakers, the investment more than pays back. Even if you aren't scientific, it can be beneficial to build libraries relatively early - such as size 3/4 cities once they aren't just cranking out settlers/workers/defenders anymore.

nyarmondt's suggestion to go for Military Tradition is good if you are playing militaristically, but if scientific growth is a greater priority, I'd recommend going for Education right away in the Middle Ages (or after Feudalism, depending on the military situation and if you need pikes/medieval infantry for safety).

I'll echo the sentiment that wonders seem to be too much of a focus. None are necessary to keep up in tech. Some help (Smith's Trading Company, Copernicus's Observatory), but others are a distraction and not generally worth it in a tech game (Great Wall, Temple of Artemis, Great Lighthouse if you don't plan to conquer overseas or meet foreign civs and be a tech broker). Leonardo's Workshop does defray upgrade costs, but if your shield production is good it may still be more cost-effective to just disband old units (or send them to the front if a war's going on) than to pay to upgrade them.

I wonder if part of the issue is the Huge maps with only 7 opponents. The AI will generally out-expand you on Monarch, unless you are a skilled expansionist, and if the AI is out-expanding you, that might be explaining part of this.

Regardless, I agree with Theov's recommendation of posting a save. It's hard to know what the real issue is without one.

 

[lucky duck]

Finally, the one and only reason I ever make an MPP: THE MPP OF DOOM!!! I make an MPP with one or more civs, then goad some other civ to DOWing me and attacking me on my own turf, then watch the fireworks.

I have found one other reason to make a MPP:

Suppose that it is late in the Industrial Age, and an AI controls 33% of the land. This AI is a very aggressive Fascist regime that has acquired all its land through war. The rest of the land is occupied by friendly civs who are your trade partners and pay you tribute.

If you let the game play out by itself, the giant AI will declare war on the weakest civ. The AI will conquer the civ then move on to the next civ and do the same thing.

If you sign a MPP with the weakest civ, the giant AI will declare war on the next-weakest civ, and things will play out that way.

Now, if you sign a MPP with all the civs, the giant AI will just sit there furiously. He will remain in Fascism, but he will not dare to challenge the entire world.

I believe that this is the intended purpose of the MPP, and it works quite well.

 

[lucky duck]

The other reason to sign a MPP, of course, is if you are weak and you have an aggressive neighbor. If you are bordering the Mongols, you can be pretty sure that they will attack you at some point. If you sign a MPP with someone else, the Mongols will be less likely to attack you.

It is unfortunate that MPPs are not implemented more effectively in the game. It is easy to determine who are our allies and enemies, but MPPs are usually not a good idea for two reasons:

1) Our allies/trade partners are often at war with each other for 50+ turns for no good reason. Either we must choose a side and lose one of our trades, or we must wait for them to be at peace before we can sign them up.

2) The AI declare war on each other when it is not wise to do so, and they are happy to drag you along. One time I saw the Portuguese, who had been reduced to one city, declare war on the runaway AI, who destroyed them in one turn.

Still, if I have a strong trade partner who is currently at peace whom I do not want the runaway AI to attack, I will consider signing him to a MPP.