I'm going to keep playing Civ 3!!!

[provolt]

<rant>

I thought I would take up these bits to say that I am going to keep playing Civ 3. I love this game, and I think it's a lot of fun.

I've spent a large chunk of free time playing the game, and there are TONS of features that I really like.

I love the borders. You can actually have a decent nation. To the "Culture Flipping Sucks" crowd, I say "bah!" It not too tough to prevent culture flipping. Build a strong culture. Use lots of units. I've played quite a few games at all levels, and I rarely have culture flipping problems.

I love the resources. It really adds to the game. There could be more resources, but the ones they have are pretty sweet. Folks complain that they aren't common enough. Who cares? This isn't a history lesson, it's not a geography less, and it's certainly not geology less. The rates make it so you usually have acess, and if not, then you can probably trade for it. It's part of the game.

I love the fact that the folks from Firaxis actually are on these forums and soliciting our input. --- "But they didn't listen to my idea and it was really good" --- SO WHAT! If they implemented everyones good ideas they game would require a couple terabytes of hard drive space and need a 200 yottahertz processor to make the turns finish in a reasonable time.

I love the fact that the game has been patched at all. Are the patches perfect? Hell no. Are the valueable and worthy of thanks HELL YES! It's a design process. There are always trade-offs... speed vs. size vs. features vs. time to market vs. price vs. complexity, etc. I think overall the programmers have made WAY MORE good decisions than they have made bad ones.

I don't think the AI cheats. It has a different set a rules. That happens. In football, offensive linemen can't move, defensive linemen can. In golf, bad golfers get free strokes in match play. (handicap) It makes the game so I can play it multiple times. If it didn't have different rules it would be boring. It's not boring, and I love it.

</rant>

 

[Zouave]

If you don't think the AI cheats you are not only desirous of a Fantasy game you are IN a fantasy. The proof has been posted over and over.

We wouldn't have needed any patches at all if Firaxis hadn't thrown a beta game at us in November.

"Soliciting our input"?? In over five years of discussions about Civ 3 after Civ 2 came out NO ONE ever asked for Settler Diarrhea, Culture Flipping, or even more lame naval warfare. It takes only ONE idiotic CF city to screw up a game that took many hours as we not only lose the city we lose the entire garrison which can kill an entire invasion.

Resource rates? If I couldn't have edited them up from the ludicrously low values Firaxis concocted I would have tied to sell this turkey on E-bay in December.

The biggest problem is this is not the descendant of Civ 2 as advertised. As I posted elsewhere, I wouldn't say a word if this was called "Culture: The Human Against the World".

But you enjoy yourself.

 

[Aeson]

I like the fact that Civ 3 provides a few challenges. Culture can be overcome, the AI expansion rates exceeded or stopped, resources claimed, spearmen killed, it just takes a bit of planning and intelligence.

 

[JustListenen]

Originally posted by Zouave

But you enjoy yourself.

I do, I do!

Why don't you post your complaints on a web page, link to it, and post the links in your posts.

It would save you typing time as you could edit the text once and would save the rest of us a lot of download time since we wouldn't have to download your RANTS! After reading ONE of your posts, the rest are 100% predictable

Have a nice day!

 

[Jon Shafer]

Originally posted by JustListenen
I do, I do!

Why don't you post your complaints on a web page, link to it, and post the links in your posts.

It would save you typing time as you could edit the text once and would save the rest of us a lot of download time since we wouldn't have to download your RANTS! After reading ONE of your posts, the rest are 100% predictable

Have a nice day!

LoL I like that idea!
It could be like when the moderators provide a link for why they close a thread or ban someone.

All the whiners could just post a link to an official 'whine page' with all possible whines, and each whine with a #. The whiner could just post the number of his particular whine, then provide the link to the whine page.

 

[CivAgamemnon]

If folks are gonna whine about the game so much, why do they keep playing, then? If the game is a "turkey", why do you still post here and play? Doesn't make sense to me. Either fix the problem yourself, since Firaxis will not, or live with it.

 

[Isak]

provolt, you are absolutely right. Firaxis have nothing to be ashamed of, this game is certainly highly enjoyable and well worth the money.

Originally posted by Zouave
If you don't think the AI cheats you are not only desirous of a Fantasy game you are IN a fantasy. The proof has been posted over and over.

That's not what the man said, but I guess that's not enough to deter you from your crusade, Zouave.

What you call cheating, provolt calls the rules of the game - and I definitely second that. If the AI had to play by exactly the same rules as the human player it wouldn't be any match at all. Not due to bad AI programming, but due to the fact that the human mind is in it self a great advantage over the AI's pre-programmed analytical ability and ability to respond. Don't be so delusional to think it is actually possible to create an AI which can compete with a human being in a game as complex as Civ3 (or even Civ1 and 2) - it isn't possible now, and most likely will not be in our lifetime.

 

[NY Hoya]

Originally posted by provolt
[B In football, offensive linemen can't move, defensive linemen can. [/B]

But in football, each team has offensive and defensive linemen. The Civ 3 bonuses given to the AI are akin to giving one team an extra offensive and defensive player on the field while restricting the other team to the standard 11 + saying that one team only needs to get 8 yards for a first down.

Other than that, Civ3 is a good game, I hope even Zouave agrees with that. It is not a great game, which is a shame considering that it could and should have been. I think that if Firaxis gave us a little more power with the editor (no hardcoding please) and brought back some of the functions that were originally in the game (city trading, at least as an option), CIV3 could be a heck of a lot better.

 

[provolt]

Quoting NY Hoya
But in football, each team has offensive and defensive linemen. The Civ 3 bonuses given to the AI are akin to giving one team an extra offensive and defensive player on the field while restricting the other team to the standard 11 + saying that one team only needs to get 8 yards for a first down.

I agree it is like giving extra players. Heck, it IS giving extra players. However, this is necessary. The computer comes into the game with only one play book that they have to use every game all season long. They can only use one offense, one defense and can't learn how to play the game better. Now add that to the fact that programming one good offense and one good defense is extremely tough, and it is imparative that the AI only has to get 8 yards for a first down. Games where the human and computer played by the same rules would require an insane amount of processing power, RAM, hard drive space, and time to program OR they would be pathetically easy.

Quoting Zouve

Resource rates? If I couldn't have edited them up from the ludicrously low values Firaxis concocted I would have tied to sell this turkey on E-bay in December.

So the resource rates should higher. When I first heard this suggestion I thought it might be good, but now I disagree for one simple reason: High resource rates would mean everyone gets them. If everyone has them, what's the point? How does that add anything to the game? Having low resource rates makes you trade, or to war, or do without.

Quoting Zouve
The biggest problem is this is not the descendant of Civ 2 as advertised.

I think this is the heart of most people's problems with Civ3. After a few years of wet dreams about what civ3 was going to be, there is no way for it to be everything people expect. People just expected too much.

Everything that I read about it, said that it would be much different from Civ2. It is.

They said the AI would tough to beat on Diety. They didn't say why it would be difficult to beat, just that it would be difficult. I think they have provided this.

They said there would be borders. There are. They said there would be culture. There is. They said if you had weak culture, cities could flip to a stronger culture. They do.

They said if you were weak the AI would pick on you. It does.

They said you wouldn't be able to ignore any part of the game. You can't.

They said the civs would have unique abilities. They do.

They said it would be fun. And wouldn't you know, IT IS!


Oh and JustListen, I love idea about having a static page for whines about culture flipping, cheating and the like. Heck, if someone put it together, I'd consider hosting it.

 

[Kaiser_Berger]

I definitly agree with provolt and company on this....its alright if you have a complaint or two about the game, thats fine....but when i have to read the same dribble in every post that Zouave makes, it gets downright annoying....it doesn't matter what the thread is about, he and his legions of ranters are sure to throw in stuff about 'settler diarrhea' and 'AI cheating'.....so what if the AI cheats...if you don't like it, do us all a favor and don't play the game....find some other hobby to rave about.....cuz i believe i speak for many people here when i say that we know what your opinion is....we don't need to be reminded of it all the time....cuz we can't do anything about it...please save your ranting for those who created this great game...and with that said, i'll let you get back to your endless cycle of complaints
have yourself a fine and dandy day=)

 

[Masquerouge]

As I said before, complaining people are the one who make things change...
And the best customer you can have is one that complains to you, tells you why, and stay faithful to your product.
So Zouave is really Firaxis' Customer of the Century

 

[Aeson]

You don't have to complain to point out problems and get things changed though, it's just the rude and annoying way of doing so. Firaxis seems to have listened more to the general consensus on things, and not to individuals whining about one point or another. For them to change things just because of a few voices (regardless of tone) would be stupid, as they have millions of customers.

 

[Zouave]

Originally posted by Aeson
You don't have to complain to point out problems and get things changed though, it's just the rude and annoying way of doing so. Firaxis seems to have listened more to the general consensus on things, and not to individuals whining about one point or another. For them to change things just because of a few voices (regardless of tone) would be stupid, as they have millions of customers.

They have sold a large number of copies owing to their SLICK MARKETING TECHNIQUES - at that they are very skilled. Pay Sid for use of his name (even though he had nothing to do with the game); pretend this is a descendant of Civ 2 instead of something very different thus cashing in on the already existing market; get your Industry flacks to give the beta game great reviews in December; dumb down the game to appeal to a wider audience; and throw in some splashy graphics. SO WHAT.

I just wasted several more hours on Civ 3 with 1.29 installed. I attacked the Egyptain town of Giza and took it. I had six legionaries, two spearmen, and a catapult, all full strength veterans, in that town of '1'. The very next turn IT FLIPPED - and my entire garrison of nine units magically vanished. I posted screenshots in another thread.

This is utter garbage just in game terms, besides being absurd in terms of simulating reality. Enough. If I can't mod it out in the Editor I am done with this CRAP.

 

[Zouave]

Originally posted by Masquerouge
As I said before, complaining people are the one who make things change...
And the best customer you can have is one that complains to you, tells you why, and stay faithful to your product.
So Zouave is really Firaxis' Customer of the Century

As opposed to the SUCKERS who were telling us what a fabulous game it was in December even before the first patch.

If people were smarter they would realize folks such as me have made it a better game for the rest of you.

But as I posted above I can't take this Culture Flipping crap any more. I have no more time to waste. When a town of '1' flips with nine military units in it, all of whom magically vanish, the game is fatally screwed up for me. And that was after 1.29. Lt. Killer M. posted a similar example. It is preposterous, and a mystery why Firaxis is going to cram this down our throats if it's the last thing they ever do.

 

[Isak]

Originally posted by Zouave
If people were smarter they would realize folks such as me have made it a better game for the rest of you.

I would think people posting constructive suggestions have done a lot more for the game than people moaning and groaning about the game not being the way they want it to be. Maybe I'm mistaken, but usually that is what happens.

Or perhaps I have just missed your constructive suggestion on how to implement culture flipping somewhere on this board - I sure have seen a lot of your posts, but I can't remember any of your posts rising above a "I don't like that, off with it's head" sentiment. Well excuse me, but I like Culture flipping, and if you think that makes me stupid, it's your loss, not mine.

I don't see any alternative way to implement it - if it was only a matter of stacking enough units in the city, that would in my opinion degrade the game to mere resource management. There has to be an element of chance involved - strange things happen in wars. Soldiers far away from home desert, get bribed, die from exotic diseases etc... The current implementation of Culture Flipping is IMHO the best way it could be implemented with regards to gameplay - and I frankly don't give a sh** about realism in this case. In gameplay turns, as the ruler you are faced with a dilemma every time you conquer a city - if you stick many units in the city, the chance it riots is reduced, but on the other hand your loss will be so much greater if it actually DOES Culture Flip. Alternatively you could place only a few units there and hope you can finish some cultural improvements before the city CF's.

You are offered a choice - choices are the stuff that strategy games are made of - Civ3 is a strategy game not a historical simulation... learn to live with it or.... goodbye.

 

[Aeson]

Zouve, why do you even bother quoting me? You didn't address anything I said in the post, you just went off ranting on a completely different tangent. My points were about civility in discussion. You start talking about marketing, then your inability to play the game well, not to mention a wholesale cut n paste from another of your posts I just read on another thread.

They have sold a large number of copies owing to their SLICK MARKETING TECHNIQUES - at that they are very skilled.

What is capitalism coming too?!?! Now if you were rating about capitalism, I might agree with you, but this is how things work in our economy. Civ3 is a game that many, including myself, have enjoyed playing since it's release. If you really think you have a case for fraudulent marketing, take it up with a consumer group.

Pay Sid for use of his name (even though he had nothing to do with the game);

Sid is free to use his name on products as he wishes. If there is any fault in this, it's in the customers who place too much value in a name.

pretend this is a descendant of Civ 2 instead of something very different thus cashing in on the already existing market;

A descendant can be very different. Civ 3 has some interesting changes that I think add to the game.

get your Industry flacks to give the beta game great reviews in December;

I would have given the game a pretty decent review in December myself. It's gotten better through patches. It's just the nature of software developement. Maybe you should wait to buy software from now on if it really upsets you.

dumb down the game to appeal to a wider audience; and throw in some splashy graphics. SO WHAT.

Oh no! They targetted a wider audience than you. How stupid of them! They could have had your $50 complaint free if they would have just designed a game for you, not worrying about the other millions of potential customers.

I just wasted several more hours on Civ 3 with 1.29 installed.

Maybe you shouldn't play.

I attacked the Egyptain town of Giza and took it. I had six legionaries, two spearmen, and a catapult, all full strength veterans, in that town of '1'. The very next turn IT FLIPPED - and my entire garrison of nine units magically vanished. I posted screenshots in another thread.

There are strategies that can be implemented to prevent this from ever happening. Or would you prefer a nice "you win" sticker instead of an actual computer game?

This is utter garbage just in game terms, besides being absurd in terms of simulating reality.

In reality most of us would be the stupid worker the player gets at the start. We would be dead after the first turn or two. Very boring gameplay wouldn't you say? Civ 3 is not a simulator, it is a strategy game, with necessary fantasy to allow for some enjoyment.

Enough. If I can't mod it out in the Editor I am done with this CRAP.

You could mod it so that the AI can't build cultural improvements. Maybe then you could hang onto your cities?

 

[Exsanguination]

I love this game. Period.

 

[Masquerouge]

Well I think I made a post at the beginning of this thread saying how happy I was that for once people were not whining about the game... Then Zouave came...

 

[CivAgamemnon]

Ah, forget Zouave- he's a sore loser.

 

[Sanaz]

I love this game too. Maybe I'm lucky because I never played Civ1, Civ2, or SMAC, so I had no expectations (it was a gift for my wife, I had never heard of it). Also, I am ignorant with regards to history, so I never notice any inaccuracies. And I love the graphics and sound effects - they make it more fun. The gameplay is easy, there is always a new challenge or way to paly the game, and I've spent more time playing this than any game before. I am glad that there are dedicated folks who help the designers make improvements, so the game has more depth. Overall, I think this is the best game I've ever played. This may not mean much to others, but it does to me and to the game designers! Thanks for making this thread, it's refreshing to see that many like myself treat this game as a small escape from reality, not as a world defining event.