Improve the Protective trait???

kniteowl · May 13, 2007

Watiggi said:
As to the +20% strength to units within cultural borders idea, maybe have it as 2 first strikes for every unit within cultural borders instead. The original Protective trait (as was released) was Drill I and Drill II promotions to Archery and Gunpowder units but was changed - I dare say - because it could be used aggressively very effectively. With this though, the bonus exists, but only domestically, allowing it to fight effectively within their own borders.

2 first strikes LOL... I'd have a Problem with Toku, especially his defending Samurai and 3 Promotions Gunpowder units.

That's interesting that first strikes, are actually a chance at first strike and if you're unlucky that unit is as good as being unpromoted, I like your idea of improving first strikes to be more certain.

I've always thought that 3-6 first strikes meant I'd at least get 3 Free shots that my opponent, but it actually meant 3 chances of getting a hit :S... no wonder I hate First strikes so much, when I use Drill IV Redcoats, they tend to more likely die then CR3 Redcoats... :S

it also makes sense to why first strike aren't included in combat odds, because they'd have to show you 2 seperate calculations,

These are the odds of your first strike hitting
These are the odds that you will win the battle (Exclusive of First strike)

yatta77 said:
First I'd like to say that what I say here are just simple opinions based on my experience playing. I really hope you don't think of it as something personal

I apologies if I sound like I'm taking things personally, and I'm not, I'm just stating my opinion on things.

yatta77 said:
...Beside that, the bonuses you propose to add to the Drill line are something already available with the promotions "Shock", "Pinch", and "the one for siege" (don't remember the name, sorry)

The idea was to give it a mini boost because first Strikes don't always hit and you can't have all the Counter and Drill promos unless you have a high experienced unit

yatta77 said:
Really? You teached me something! I tought they were! Thanks!

Yeah they aren't included, check the War Academy on Combat articles for more information,

Btw Tought is actually Spelt "Thought" with an 'h'

yatta77 said:
...well, that was my idea actually about aquaducts, as I said few posts above. Beside Aqueduct not beeing taken as 1/2 price building from the other traits. But improving the Castles would be ok too, and the +2xp Siege might be fair as a balancing idea (it makes the 1/2 price building more interesting), also if it has not really much to share with "protective" to me.

The idea of Giving castles +2Xpto Siege is because the Spanish Citadel gives +5XP to Siege and it'd similar to Stables and the Mongol Ger

Castle = + 2xp to siege
Citadel = + 5xp to siege

Stables = 2xp to Mounted
Ger = 4xp to Mounted.

Watiggi · May 13, 2007

Ger should give +5xp to Mounted, given that it a) expires after Cavalry and b) brings it more inline with mounted unit bonuses for the Mongols vs mounted unit bonuses for Charismatic (it will allow Mongol mounted units capable of getting 3 promotions at around the same time Charismatic can). ...But that's a whole other thread.

Thedrin · May 13, 2007

KniteOwl:
first strike aren't included in combat odds

Unpromoted cho-ko-nu (2 first strikes) attacking unpromoted war elephant: 32%
Drill I cho-ko-nu attacking unpromoted war elephant: 34.9%
Drill II cho-ko-nu attacking unpromoted war elephant: 41%
Drill III cho-ko-nu attacking unpromoted war elephant: 47.5%
Drill IV cho-ko-nu attacking unpromoted war elephant: 67%

I'm fairly certain that first strikes weren't included in combat odds in an earlier Vanilla version of CivIV but they're certainly included now. Unless you're saying that they're inaccurately calculated or that the cho-ko-nu's 2 first strikes aren't included..

kniteowl · May 13, 2007

Thedrin said:
Unpromoted cho-ko-nu (2 first strikes) attacking unpromoted war elephant: 32%
Drill I cho-ko-nu attacking unpromoted war elephant: 34.9%
Drill II cho-ko-nu attacking unpromoted war elephant: 41%
Drill III cho-ko-nu attacking unpromoted war elephant: 47.5%
Drill IV cho-ko-nu attacking unpromoted war elephant: 67%

I'm fairly certain that first strikes weren't included in combat odds in an earlier Vanilla version of CivIV but they're certainly included now. Unless you're saying that they're inaccurately calculated or that the cho-ko-nu's 2 first strikes aren't included..

Really??? my bad... guess that what happens you read outdated material.

yatta77 · May 13, 2007

kniteowl said:
2 first strikes LOL... I'd have a Problem with Toku, especially his defending Samurai and 3 Promotions Gunpowder units.

Good point! I didn't think about it. But +20% str. would be as bad. Thinking again of your Drill improved idea, it is not to blame. Combat line it's a safer choice than Drill line, which becomes strong only when gets to DrillIII/IV. But I would like to see the line improved in a different way than coping bonuses from other pomotons already available to those units. Maybe a little retrait % bonus? (like 5% each Drill promotion?). Or a healing bonus? Just ideas...

it also makes sense to why first strike aren't included in combat odds, because they'd have to show you 2 seperate calculations,
These are the odds of your first strike hitting
These are the odds that you will win the battle (Exclusive of First strike)

I apologies if I sound like I'm taking things personally, and I'm not, I'm just stating my opinion on things.

Same here. I just wanted to specify it for myself, not accusing you

There's really no need to apologize.

Btw Tought is actually Spelt "Thought" with an 'h'

With 2 "h" you mean

(just kidding, lol)
Cool, good to know.

I'm always afraid to sound "funny" for my english grammar (I can't take the dictionary for every single post, it would take forever, lol). So thanks to everybody who correct me.

Castle = + 2xp to siege

I was thinking about that: a Castle is a military building, so actually a military xp bonus (or a free promotion?) on new units would fit very well to improve that building.

@Watiggi: you analisys on FS is interesting, but that's changing/improving the game itself more than improving a trait in my opinion.

Thedrin · May 13, 2007

Watiggi:As to the +20% strength to units within cultural borders idea, maybe have it as 2 first strikes for every unit within cultural borders instead. The original Protective trait (as was released) was Drill I and Drill II promotions to Archery and Gunpowder units but was changed - I dare say - because it could be used aggressively very effectively. With this though, the bonus exists, but only domestically, allowing it to fight effectively within their own borders.

This was never the case. Protective was released in its current form - drill I and city garrison I to archery and gunpowder units. It was advertised before release differently - drill I and drill II to archery and siege units. It was never, that I'm aware of, drill I and drill II to archery and gunpowder.

Yatta77:
Good point! I didn't think about it. But +20% str. would be as bad. Thinking again of your Drill improved idea, it is not to blame. Combat line it's a safer choice than Drill line, which becomes strong only when gets to DrillIII/IV. But I would like to see the line improved in a different way than coping bonuses from other pomotons already available to those units. Maybe a little retrait % bonus? (like 5% each Drill promotion?). Or a healing bonus? Just ideas...

Are you refering to giving drill I promoted units access to cover, shock, and pinch and giving drill II promoted units access to formation?

This was a significant improvement to the drill line. Previously, as well as being a long promotion line, drill reduced a units promotion options significantly. If you wanted to give a unit shock, cover, or pinch you had to give it two non- drill promotions. If you wanted to give a unit formation you had to give it three non-drill promotions. A cover, drill IV promoted unit required 6 promotions. A formation, drill IV promoted unit required 7 promotions. In Vanilla (pre-military instructors) how often did siege and archery units achieve that many experience points?

Now a cover, drill IV or a formation, drill IV promoted unit only requires 5 promotions. A much more realistic possibility which makes the drill line far less restrictive.

yatta77 · May 13, 2007

Thedrin said:
Are you refering to giving drill I promoted units access to cover, shock, and pinch and giving drill II promoted units access to formation?.

No. I was refering to the Drill promotions improvments Kniteowl proposed some posts above. I agree on your analisys. "Opening" the specific promotions cover, shock, pinch, formation with DrillI/II it is correct.

I was only saying that to improve the Drill line itself (if there's need to) I'd like something different than a bonus already available with the promotions you quoted. Adding to the extra DrillI FSchance and DrillII FS a little retrait % was an example in that direction. A 5% retrait it's a bonus archery and gunpowder units cannot get with other promotions, so it could be an original idea to make DrillI/II a little closer in power to CombatI/II. And it wuold fit better the drill line to me than unit specific bonuses.

Moon Pine · May 13, 2007

I`d like giving protective trait boosts to Tile Improvement or Attack(Strength) bonus in cultural bolder.

Watiggi · May 13, 2007

yatta77 said:
@Watiggi: you analisys on FS is interesting, but that's changing/improving the game itself more than improving a trait in my opinion.

True. I brought it up because the first strike system isn't as reliable as it suggests. With the FS system improved, the Protective trait's free Drill I could have much more reliability to it. Also, the xFS(C) inside cultural borders would become more reliable and consistant aswell - more useful. That's why I brought it up.

Thedrin said:
This was never the case. Protective was released in its current form - drill I and city garrison I to archery and gunpowder units. It was advertised before release differently - drill I and drill II to archery and siege units. It was never, that I'm aware of, drill I and drill II to archery and gunpowder.

Your right. Hmm...actually, if I remember correctly, it said "Artillery" in the review, not seige. People just assumed it meant seige, but it was never confirmed. I don't however remember whether it said "Archery units and Artillery receive Drill I and Drill II" or "Archery, Gunpowder and Artillery units receive Drill I and Drill II". The latter seems too extreme, but I guess it really doesn't matter now. I do know the word "Artillery" was used though and not seige.

I do like the "inside cultural borders" part of it. It allows fighting (attack and defense) inside borders and I think it gives enough flexibility to the player to use it to Protect their civ without giving it too much of an advantage with being aggressive. What ever a change is, it should have some sort of "inside cultural borders" bonus. 2 FS still looks good imo. If it turns out to be a bit too much, then I would make it 1-2 FS and try again. Then keep going until a good balance is met.

Rusty Edge · May 13, 2007

Thedrin said:
Unpromoted cho-ko-nu (2 first strikes) attacking unpromoted war elephant: 32%
Drill I cho-ko-nu attacking unpromoted war elephant: 34.9%
Drill II cho-ko-nu attacking unpromoted war elephant: 41%
Drill III cho-ko-nu attacking unpromoted war elephant: 47.5%
Drill IV cho-ko-nu attacking unpromoted war elephant: 67%

I'm fairly certain that first strikes weren't included in combat odds in an earlier Vanilla version of CivIV but they're certainly included now. Unless you're saying that they're inaccurately calculated or that the cho-ko-nu's 2 first strikes aren't included..

As I recall, they're based on an average number of the first strike chances becoming first strikes. Your mileage may vary.

Antilogic · May 13, 2007

True...I don't see any reason why to change the functioning of how first strikes operate, though. I think the city garrison boosts for all your gunpowder units are quite powerful, especially given that fortresses work with city garrison promotions now.

Plus, when you have just taken a city, and you move in your troops to hold it...+20% to their defense in that recently captured city is a great thing to have against the inevitable AI siege and cavalry counterattack. Especially when they hit you with 4-5 siege units first and then start the mounted assault. I typically don't bring as many city garrison units along on an attack, so having each gunpowder unit (and earlier archer units) with a free city garrison is a huge advantage on the offense as well as the defense.

To state my position clearly, I'm pleased with the current balance of traits, although I think the worker/settler bonuses between Expansive and Imperialistic should be flipped. But that's another thread.

scy12 · May 13, 2007

Antilogic said:
True...I don't see any reason why to change the functioning of how first strikes operate, though. I think the city garrison boosts for all your gunpowder units are quite powerful, especially given that fortresses work with city garrison promotions now.

Plus, when you have just taken a city, and you move in your troops to hold it...+20% to their defense in that recently captured city is a great thing to have against the inevitable AI siege and cavalry counterattack. Especially when they hit you with 4-5 siege units first and then start the mounted assault. I typically don't bring as many city garrison units along on an attack, so having each gunpowder unit (and earlier archer units) with a free city garrison is a huge advantage on the offense as well as the defense.

To state my position clearly, I'm pleased with the current balance of traits, although I think the worker/settler bonuses between Expansive and Imperialistic should be flipped. But that's another thread.

But Protective does seem like playing with one trait until longbowmen -crossbowmen. By the time everyone or you gets axemen , archers are outdated . Later protective does have it's uses but early game it is very weak .

Antilogic · May 19, 2007

Not every trait is useful throughout the entire game. The paltry +2 culture from Creative tends to evaporate in the grand scheme of things towards the end of the game. You'll only notice the cheap libraries and that little culture if you are conquering late game and building up new settlements, so it still has a reduced effect. Just like how "Protective" has a reduced effect until the post-gunpowder point.

Imperialistic settler bonuses become less valuable with time because you don't need to found a bunch of cities in the late game (usually). I can find more examples, probably. Not all the traits are always very useful--it's a matter of finding a way to make them useful. You can do that with Protective, just like any other trait.

Improve the Protective trait???

kniteowl

Pirate Captain :P

Watiggi

Deity

Thedrin

Deity

kniteowl

Pirate Captain :P

yatta77

Emperor

Thedrin

Deity

yatta77

Emperor

Moon Pine

Nuke Attack!!!

Watiggi

Deity

Rusty Edge

Deity

Antilogic

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scy12

Deity

Antilogic

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