Indonesian Jong

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

In this game (a DLC of two ancient Southeast Asian Empires, Khmer and 'Sri Vijaya' (Indonesia) Indonesian UU is... instead of Kris swordsman, they got Jong / Djong. This unit is a naval ranged unit, it has oars and mat sail(s) and equipped with cannons. Technically a galleass with mat sail (not sure which tech unlocks it but it comes BEFORE Frigate).

Is Jong actually represents an Aceh supergalleass of the 17th Century and terrified Portuguese Nau captains (as they called these galleass 'The End of the Universe') as discussed here? https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/navy-reform.650637/#post-15700958

 

[Kwami]

I guess I don't know exactly which ship the Jong is supposed to represent, but the Indonesia civilization in the game is most definitely not Sri Vijaya.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

I guess I don't know exactly which ship the Jong is supposed to represent, but the Indonesia civilization in the game is most definitely not Sri Vijaya.

If not Sri Vijaya then what?
Is Gitra........... 's empire (kingdom, or federation, as Indo-Melayu peoples preferred systems) comes before or after Sri Vijaya? or exists around the same time but located farther south and east well outside Malaya Peninsular??

Back to topic. do you think Jongs being ranged naval a correct or wrong choice? Boris seems to disagree with Firaxis on this one.

https://civilization.fandom.com/wiki/Jong_(Civ6)

 

[Kwami]

If not Sri Vijaya then what?
Is Gitra........... 's empire (kingdom, or federation, as Indo-Melayu peoples preferred systems) comes before or after Sri Vijaya? or exists around the same time but located farther south and east well outside Malaya Peninsular??

Back to topic. do you think Jongs being ranged naval a correct or wrong choice? Boris seems to disagree with Firaxis on this one.

https://civilization.fandom.com/wiki/Jong_(Civ6)

Gitarja came from Java and her kingdom (Majapahit) included both Java and Sumatra, plus other islands. It came after Sri Vijaya.

I don't know much about ships, but a quick Wikipedia shows that Jong was a combination warship and transport ship that was armed with cannons. So, I think the in-game unit is fitting.

 

[Andrew Johnson [FXS]]

Indonesia here represents Majapahit, and the jong is as you describe. While the grand intercontinental ships of the VOC get a lot of press, the inter-Asian trade system was enormous in terms of the amount of ships moving goods to and from Majapahit and later Batavia to China and elsewhere in the region and, just as the area had a lot of pirates (hello Bugis), these ships needed armed protection.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Djong_(ship)

I like the jong over a "kris warrior" as the kris is simply a (often royal, often ornate) dagger. "Kris warrior" doesn't really represent a significant group in Javanese infantry (pikes and lances might be more so), whereas the jong were pretty significant.

For further reading, check out Anthony Reid's Southeast Asia in the Era of Commerce or Victor Lieberman's Strange Parallels. Eric Tagliacozzo's historical work on Indian Ocean trade is nice, too, as is Enseng Ho's Graves of Tarim.

 

[Andrew Johnson [FXS]]

Sri Vijaya was significant, but much further back in time. Majapahit is important as the last Hindu kingdom (and the origins of the Balinese kingship system) to hold a significant rule over Java. Srivijaya would be a lot harder to research and implement, as there's just a lot less known about it. (See Clifford Geertz's Negara, as well).

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

Sri Vijaya was significant, but much further back in time. Majapahit is important as the last Hindu kingdom (and the origins of the Balinese kingship system) to hold a significant rule over Java. Srivijaya would be a lot harder to research and implement, as there's just a lot less known about it. (See Clifford Geertz's Negara, as well).

But Sri Vijaya (Also referred to as Si Wichai in modern Thais) was seated in Parlembang (??) and was AFAIK bigger than Mahapahit Kingdom. Also Hindu Empire (one might said they were also Federations), and also ruled Malaya Peninsular, roughtly half of that peninsular beyond modern Malaysia. it is said that Sri Vijaya farthest extend (as part of the Empire/Federation) was what's now a city of Nakhon Si Thammarat (นครศรีธรรมราช) but personally I think further North. I might have think Phuket (Back then its seat was in Ta Lang / Telang... sh.... the original name is very Melayu to me. particularly many provinces in Southern Thailand (the so called 'Axe Shaft') has Melayu names. (archaic ones), or even Sri Vijayan ones.

I don't understand why Firaxis ignore Sri Vijaya despite that the Empire was much larger and left much traces in Four or Five countries of Southern ASEAN (Thailand, Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia, and maybe Brunei). Did modern Indonesian and Malaysians hooked themselves to the old Sri Vijaya as well as some Regional Siamese today?
Is the same 'Galleass Jong' also used by anyone else around them??
Is this design also a Jong as well? this one came from a propaganda film.

 

[Kwami]

Majapahit was often requested by fans and so was added to Civ V and Civ VI as Indonesia. I don't think it needs to be more complicated than that.

 

[Andrew Johnson [FXS]]

You have to look at the historical evidence first. Srivijaya seems to have had a wide influence, but there are little records from the time. It is more of an idea than a historical place - compare, for instance, Sukhothai with Ayutthaya. There is very little evidence for a broad Sukhothai kingdom, but there is a lot of documentation about every small detail of Ayutthaya. Srivijaya is like that - there is simply very little known, and that which is known is filtered through the wishful thinking of present-day peoples. A few scattered artifacts here and there in Nakhorn Sri Thammarat and Sumatra suggest a large empire, but Majapahit has clearly-documented records!

Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of Srivijaya as well! But Majapahit is simply far more well-known and well-documented. Even though Srivijaya had a broader range than Majapahit, you've got to think about how deeply such influence went - just as Rattanakosin had a deeper influence on ordinary peoples' lives than Ayutthaya (and Ayutthaya had a deeper influence than Sukhothai or other เมือง), Majapahit would have been more powerful on a local level, even if not so broad.

About the ships - those are royal barges, not ships! ไทยก็เป็นคำเดียวกัน (เรือ) - in Thai it's the same word for "barge, ship, canoe, etc". (I'm writing in English here as I think those are the rules of the forum แต่ถ้าอยากคุยกันก็ DM ได้ครับ). Such barges look nice on the Chao Phraya, but wouldn't do so well on the open sea. The Indonesian Jong had sails and was an open-seas kind of vessel. Thai (and Lao, and Burmese, and Cambodian) forces were more land-based.

There is an old historian's saying, which is - don't ask who holds the crown, but ask who holds the plow. For the latter people, Majapahit was far more present than Srivijaya ever was.

I realize the irony of posting up against Sukhothai using a Ramkhamhaeng avatar, but, well, there was no Pridi Banomyong avatar.

 

[Andrew Johnson [FXS]]

Ah! I see what you mean to point out to me - the ship above the "Naresuan" title! Maybe that ship is derived a little from the junk/jong, but I think mostly that ship is derived from the filmmaker's imagination.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

According to the wiki, the Jong in-game doesn't necessarily resemble what a traditional Jong would look like, but more resembles the Borobodur Ship.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

Borobudur Galley? o I see.
Rightnow i'm playing Githy to determine how well or ill the Djong is represented in the game. even as Galleass or if it is the same as Super Galleass seen by Portuguese and Dutch merchants in 17th C.
even what it shoots.

 

[Andrew Johnson [FXS]]

I have been reading historian Liam Kelly's blog posts on Southeast Asian history and remembered this thread. He is making a rather compelling case for Srivijaya not having existed. I think one could do something similar for Sukhothai (though of course the city existed, but perhaps not the empire as broad as it has been imagined).

https://leminhkhai.blog/imagining-s...VprSKHTII_B_YyQ9_tyhIph_x0GSPN9Q-xqACsh-cNWJc