Is early religion a suicide on emperor/immortal?

[CivSetä]

I can win almost every time on emperor and maybe 75% games on immortal when warmongering (I regen if spot really sucks), but any change to my usual strategy gets me to the thin ice. I found warmongering quite boring nowadays so I decided to try something else.

To really advance on higher levels I forget the idea of early religion, but now I decided to try it again. My problems is not to found a religion, but how to expand fast enough. I can't start with worker, because my worker doesn't have anything to improve because I lack worker techs. So my city grows really slow and does not have a decent production. I usually choose warrior-settler- or settler first-strategies because worker is almost useless. My early expansion is just a nighmare, when I get my first settler out every good city site is already gone, and because of early religion, I'm not advanced enough to even locate copper or horses. Unless I'm very lucky I can't found them on my other poorly located cities either, and I am boxed in just waiting for Monty to declare war.

Researching all the needed worker techs + BW takes eternity with unimproved terrain, which makes me also loose alphabet race everytime on immortal. On emperor I can usually win it, and get maybe math and IW for it, but getting cats for war is still too slow and I am usually facing too many longbows. What do you think, is early religion just a pointless gamble on higher levels? How do you start a game early religion in your mind? Which leader you recommend? I don't want to go down to monarch, because then I can easily outtech the AI in the end game.

Btw. isolated starts are ok. I had a nice cultural victory yesterday with Gandhi on emperor level. I managed to grab four religions: Hinduism, Judaism Confusianism (Oracle) and Taoism (lightbulb) and four early wonders: Oracle, Pyramids, ToA and GL. (Had stone on capital and marble on second city though... ) But everytime I have neighbors around, I have some problems.

 

[Giaur]

It is not. Settler first then ...

 

[shyuhe]

You should look up snaaty's open immortal game. I think half of the players got early religions in that game and still got a space victory (granted, the start position was a pretty good one). It's not impossible but it definitely changes your tactics. For example, settler first + going for early religion is a decent option with Brennus.

 

[Dirk1302]

^^Yes on that starting pos with gold and room to expand we had a lot of options. I feel Civseta has a point, i've tested with different (not so good) starts on immortal, going for a religion can feel like being stuck in ancient times forever.

Then again if other civs pick up your religion you catch up fast with a shrine in early mid game (0-500 ad).If not i feel the early delay in worker techs can hurt you for a long time you might miss out at crucial moments on things like good city sites, alphabet, GL, even liberalism. So not suicide but more difficult to play than just going for the worker techs i feel.

 

[uberfish]

Usually you want to open settler first or warrior-settler with this. It is strange that you can't get any good city sites; building a settler before worker gets the first settler out earlier and it should actually be easier to get a good second city. You then build a worker out of each city and can catch up on terrain improvements pretty quickly.

I find it works well with an early shrine that will promote the religion spread while there are few religions out and gain some friends and cash.

 

[lilnev]

I've never become comfortable with religion-first, for exactly the reasons you describe. The very early game is about getting your best tiles under cultivation as fast as possible, and delaying your tech (which unlocks the worker improvements for your best tiles) by many turns for something that does not boost productivity/growth ... well it generally hasn't worked out well for me.

That said, I think the biggest disadvantage is that the AI claims all the best city sites while you're still getting in gear. Religion-first might work much better on isolated starts (where the early happiness can really pay off), or on maps where there's a lot of land per civ (low sea level, or some map scripts like highlands). If there's no threat of being smothered at two cities, then religion-first looks more plausible. Still, color me a skeptic....

peace,
lilnev

 

[Lanstro]

I play emperor shuffle on random civs, and the vast majority of the time I don't get the early religion

But it does make sense to in certain situations, such as when you're one of the mysticism civs and you start somewhere that you can work on a 1 or 2 commerce square, especially when you're Spain. It also makes more sense to go for it if it looks like you're on archipeligo or continents.

 

[Andraeianus I]

The tactic I use with Churchill on emperor (starting with mining & fishery) is to for hinduism first. Then go for sailing to connect my cities on different rivers AND to spread religion. And then bronze working and archery. This way you have a good defensive position (a lot of friends + the necessary military techs). On fractal maps this works out pretty well. Often you start with a coastal city in which you can start with a workboat first. I start improving the terrain only after I have grabbed the territory I want to grab or when I have the necessary worker techs (which is pretty late).

The wonder I usually go for is the Great Lighthouse. This is the most powerful wonder if you have a lot of coastal cities (which I usually have on a fractal map).

Polytheism is also important if you happen to have some marble nearby.

 

[CivSetä]

uberfish: The main problem is that I can get a relatively good city spot (cows, gold etc.), but unfortunately I usually miss bronze and horses as I don't know their location when I finish settler. I am usually a many years away from BW at that point.

lilnev: Yes isolated starts are good for early religion (or two). Problem is that you can't know if you are isolated on 4000 BC when playing fractal. It takes at least 10 turns to make sure (even when AI gets all those scouts) and then you are already in the middle of polytheism. I think there is no sense changing your plans at that point.

Lanstro: Yes Spain is probably a top three choice for early religion if you have a coastal start. (Coastal and lake being the best possible start, IMHO) You can build workboat while researching polytheism, and seafood lets you research needed worker techs a bit faster. But Spain with inland start is a total disaster if going for early religion.

Andraeianus I: I think that changes to grab early religion without mysticism on higher levels are something between slim to none... at least I wouldn't rely on that!


I checked Aelf's Immortal Challenge I, where Monty grabbed polytheism in the start. Results were something that I have experienced, except Aelf never faced any attack, even while staying in the bottom of the power graph. Surely it was a masterpiece of diplomacy, which is probably my weak point. I have had similar games where I have managed to kill one neighbor, but usually one of other stronger AIs on the same continent attacks me with his superior units and makes sure that I can't recover for space race. In warmonger games I can usually wipe out my continent, but when getting religion first I simply can't build big enough army to even maintain peace.

 

[Giaur]

The tactic I use with Churchill on emperor (starting with mining & fishery) is to for hinduism first. Then go for sailing to connect my cities on different rivers AND to spread religion.

Are you sure that connection between cities accelerates religion spread?

 

[cabert]

Are you sure that connection between cities accelerates religion spread?

I'm sure, yes.
Building the shrine also accelerates the spread.
At emperor level (sorry, i'm not THAT comfortable with immortal), I got myself buddhism and a very early shrine (oracle + scientists of course gave me a prophet ).
All my neighbours became buddhist in the few next turns. This way it's not a suicide to switch to buddhism myself. In fact, it was the single best way to keep out of troubles .

 

[CivSetä]

IIRC you need a connection before religion CAN spread. And religions can spread to your neighbors even without open borders, if there COULD be a connection. In one game I was trying to keep civs isolated (my capital was on a thin isthmus in the middle of a long continent) but their religions spread through my lands and they get connected even when I kept my borders closed.

 

[Andraeianus I]

For religion to spread automatically the cities need to be connected. The shrine enhances the chance.

 

[Andraeianus I]

Andraeianus I: I think that changes to grab early religion without mysticism on higher levels are something between slim to none... at least I wouldn't rely on that!

It is a pretty good chance actually. I would say 75% at least -so is my experience-. And if you fail it is not much of an issue, because you still have a nice wonder tech and can go -if feasible- to Monotheism if you really need an early religion or go to Code of Laws via the Oracle.

 

[Dirk1302]

Chances of getting it are excellent even on Immortal. Not getting it is pretty disastrous though, you're sure off to a bad start in this case.

 

[sooooo]

How does settler first work? Doesn't he get eaten by barbarians?

 

[Dirk1302]

Good question, you have to make sure your first warrior survives and is in the at the correct location for settling ideally on a forested hill nearby.

 

[CivSetä]

I had some test games: continents, marathon, Saladin. Poor results!


Game 1: Got hindu, built settler first, grabbed three other great comercial city sites, gold and food on everyone of them. Lizzy invited Brennus and Roosevelt to buddhist club, my religion didn't spread enough even when I built roads to AI cities. I was beaten up by both Lizzy and Brennus while still building my army. Didn't adopt hindu and couldn't convert to buddhism, they were pleased but attacked me anyway.

Lesson learnt: Don't found 4 cities, must have defence sooner. Feels like a noob again after neglecting basics...


Game 2: Same good start, location on nice isthmus in middle of continent. Founded two cities two block AIs on both end, had copper but didn't have any commercial squares and my economy collapsed before fishing or pottery. Game over, man.

Lesson learnt: Another noob mistake, commerce is vital!


Game 3: Another good start, got hindu and grabbed a great city spot 1 turn before chinese arrived. Built also another good city, but then there was no more room, and didn't get copper or horses. Hinduism spread very well to China, Korea, India and Carthage, but Hannibal soon founded judaism and converted. Still didn't feel frightened, as they were far away.
I was first on alphabet, traded it for math, IW and rest of worker techs. No iron either! Teched towards construction to start offensive (had ivory), when Hannibal attacked me. Well, I whipped some walls so he could not take my cities, but all of my land was pillaged. Game over again.

Lesson learned: Diplomacy went wrong. Well, I feared chinese attack (has close border problems) so I had to convert when Mao asked me to.

 

[Dirk1302]

Scenario 3 is new for me ( no fighting resource whatsoever). Scenario 1 (religious strife) is typical for founding a religion, if others convert to another religion i usually step out of my own unless i'm very sure i can handle a fight.
It's possible You'd have had the same problem without founding Hindu but Buddism might have spread more easy. As it is AI's will attack someone at some point and they were probably mighty pleased with each other.

Scenario 2 (no commerce resource) is always a problem on immortal. Giaur has started an open game (emperor level) to address this problem. How would you have dealt with this start without founding a religion CivSeta?.

 

[CivSetä]

Scenario 2 (no commerce resource) is always a problem on immortal. Giaur has started an open game (emperor level) to address this problem.

Have to check that, thanks!

How would you have dealt with this start without founding a religion CivSeta?

Well I researched poly-BW-agr-ah-pottery (started with mys & wheel) but my economy stagnated in the middle of pottery. Should have gone poly-BW-fishing-pottery instead, as I had no rivers or other commerce sources. I had pigs, cows and sheeps around, so I felt that AH was useful - should have seen the problems with commerce though. But I don't think that early cottage could have helped a lot - Saladin is not financial and it takes time before cottages start to make a difference.

Could I have done it better without religion? I think not enough.