Is it possible to win without going pious?

[soarom]

Hi,

As a new Civ player, I've only played several games on Noble. However, it seems impossible to become a meaningful power in the game without founding a religion; I've tried two games now as a secular civilization, i.e. skipping any religious discoveries and focusing on production, science and such, and i always end up beaten by the AI.
Any tips?

 

[Jesus Civs]

Religion has too many advantages that its hard to ignore it.

If you chose not to persue religion, you need to get alternative sources of gold and happiness.

So my tips would be:
- secure those luxury resources
- secure all the resources with high gold output
- build as many cities on the coast or rivers
- build "frontier" cities on hills and behind a river if possible (as these will be attacked)

The religious guys will have more gold, thus better technologies, thus better units.

You need to get the gold!

 

[AlessioCerci]

Founding a religion is not necessary. Better building axes and taking someone else's shrine.

 

[carl corey]

Most of the time though on higher levels addopting a religion spells trouble: you make more enemies than friends. You can easily become a non-religious power, but if you work your way to also have a religion it will indeed have its benefits. It's usually the spiritual leaders that want a religion, since you can change religious civics more often without anarchy. With the changes to Golden Ages in BtS it becomes more interesting to have a religion with others, though not necessary by all means. You're not gonna spend 1 or 3 GPs in the early game just so that you can switch from Organized Religion to Theocracy and back...

 

[soarom]

Thanks for the comment everyone.
More on that, what civ would you recommend for such a game? I always play as Indians because of them nice fast workers, but maybe a secular game prefers a financial civilization?

 

[carl corey]

The Indians are actually quite good for religious purposes. You can run Pacifism too to boost your Great Person generation together with the Philosophical trait edit: for Gandhi, or you can build the Oracle for Code of Laws with Asoka (cheap courthouses).

The warrior leaders are good for non-religious games: Tokugawa, Cyrus, Shaka, the Romans, Alexander, the Mongols, etc. Although if you do become the first in military power you might consider addopting a religion just 'cause the other AIs won't attack you anyway. Financial has nothing to do with religion or not IMO.

 

[soarom]

Financial has nothing to do with religion or not IMO.

I was offering financial for a pagan game, because not founding religions loses you a lot of money.

 

[carl corey]

How's that happening? A shrine in the early game won't give you too much gold anyway. And you won't have any gold multipliers for a while (markets first). And you can always conquer a shrine city even if it wasn't you who founded that religion. Also, that doesn't mean you have to addopt the religion! A shrine works just as well with or without it being a state religion.

Also, founding many religions and spreading them for shrines has its costs: missionaries cost hammers, so do temples and monasteries; religious techs cost beakers you could use for other techs; shrines need Great Prophets, meaning you won't get Great Scientists for lightbulbing your way to the top of the tech race (or building Academies), or Great Engineers for instant wonders. Multiple religions and multiple shrines shine around Free Religion most, when each religion is +1 happiness. Before that it's not very usefull to have more than one religion, except in science cities (to build monasteries). The loss of happiness from the temples can be countered by building units under Hereditary Rule.

Anyway, to sum it up: "costs" don't always mean money. Religions may offer boosts but they also come at other costs. And the costs of not having religions can be balanced by financial, organized, being aggressive, great persons, etc. There are lots of ways to play the game without a state religion.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Very good points, carl, however, simply having a shrine in the early game can afford you that extra 10% on the science slider and may put you ahead of more AI. Also, if you use one city to effectively spread religion (you can only have 3 missionaries active or building at any time anyway), by the time banking is discovered, you may be able to keep science slider at 80-90% and still be in the green. Plus, all those military units will cost upkeep dollars.

Capturing a shrine may be the best way to go and in fact might be absolutely necessary on the higher levels of play for someone like me who enjoys large unit stacks, however you are not guaranteed to have a shrine near to you early enough in the game for it to help.

 

[mike p]

As often as not, I never adopt a state religion. (Generally I play Monarch.) It just pisses too many of the AI off and leads to reduced trading opportunities, reduced culture (since nonstate religions won't generate culture - recently I took over the Taoist shrine city because Alex was Buddhist and it was generating zero culture) and even starting with Mysticism it's a crap shoot that you can beat the AI to Meditation or Polytheism.

One happy face from a state religion can be easily replaced by earlier access to Drama, Construction, Monarchy, or Calendar. And you can still build temples once a religion spreads to you.

Ideally, with BTS, I try to build Shwedagon Paya, so I can revolt to Free Religion ASAP, getting happy faces for each religion, a 10% research bonus, and ending all of the 'adopt our religion' requests. Though you still get the occasional "Join us by adopting Theocracy" requests from Isabella and the like.

 

[axident]

If I think I can get a bonus out of it, via AP, Spiral, Sankore, etc. I will take a state religion. Else I try not to have any religions, as that more often than not ticks someone off enough to attack me. Have won both ways. Just pay attention to diplo and don't take a religion that you can't "pay" for--paying through negative and positive diplo modifiers that is. For the non-religious, the civic Free Religion rocks.

 

[DaveMcW]

Just adopt the religion of a neighbor you are trying to be friends with. Shrine is not needed at all.

 

[Percy]

For the non-religious, the civic Free Religion rocks.

Actually, Free Religion is better when you have lots of them, due to the happy faces.

 

[Lurking Liu]

Just match your neighbor's religion until you research Liberalism and/or build the Shwedagon Paya. Religions are very useful, and not just for the +1 Happiness. Depending on the neighbor it can be an instant +5 diplomacy. Or you can use Sankore, Spiral Minaret, and Apostalic Palace for +Beakers, +Gold, and +Hammers respectively. You need a state religion to run any Religious Civics, and Theocracy is quite good.

 

[gettingfat]

On noble religion can be a insignificant factor. With proper cottaging you don't need holy shrine, with hereditary ruling (or pyramid) you don't need the happiness from temples. If you have a tech advantage gift some to the AI to get the +4 trade relation. Use the hammers for temples to build enough military units then the AIs will be "friends" to you. Religions help, but not essential.

 

[Cer]

I don't like to found-and-adopt a religion. AI's who've founded a religion won't adopt yours and will hate you for being a "pagan". They'll also try to bring other AIs into their religion so you'll potentially have lots of religious enemies.

In the early game, one option is to turn your capital into cottage land. Early on, cottages/hamlets/the occasional village will do you very well for trade. You build a library when you get the chance, then build market, then go for bureaucracy and other science/money bonuses.

Round about the time liberalism gets discovered, it's typical that a religion or two has spread to my cities. Then I'll go free-religion, try to get monasteries for two different religions and send a missionary to every city that needs the happiness.

For always-war, always-peace or permanent war/peace, I think I would be much more inclined to use religion..... because I avoid state religion largely to be able to war against neighbors whose territory I want, while avoiding getting ganged up on by people who hate my religion.

 

[Polycrates]

The most important role of religion is diplomacy, closely followed by the religious civics. Adopting your own religion is often asking for a world of hurting. Better to go with someone else's, usually. I've found that on the higher levels, the AI loves to swarm you with missionaries. Last game, the Dutch of all people sent 4 missionaries over to me before about 1500BC (just before I liberated the holy city ). So you should be fine to choose the most diplomatically useful religion. Building roads to a religious rival early can also help ensure spread.

On the other hand, if you're on a pagan continent where the early 3 have been founded overseas, you can just go nuts with Confucianism or Christianity for all your neighbours.

There's no massive disadvantage for adopting a rival's religion, and you can still spread your own for the shrine bonus and additional happiness if you need it.

 

[axident]

Actually, Free Religion is better when you have lots of them, due to the happy faces.

I meant non-religious in the sense that you have no state religion, not that you have no cities with religion--which almost never happens on non-isolated starts anyway.

 

[Carnage04]

It would depend on the type of game you are playing. If you are running a SE, pushing science hard, and attacking people.....it probably isn't worth it to try to found a religion. Beelining the Religious techs (Except for Philosophy and Taoism) isn't going to help your general plan. Wait for a religion to come to you that a few other civs are using, switch around between Organized Religion, Theocracy, and Pacifism according to the immediate goals, and capture a shrine later through attacking. If you are making too many enemies because of your heathen tendencies, you can switch to Free Religion as soon as you get Liberalism, which should be a tech you are gunning towards anyway.

If you are trying something else that involves founding a religion, try to spread it like crazy as soon as it is founded. Especially with the early ones, you can toss missionaries towards Civs that do not yet have a religion and get them to convert easier. This will have the effects of positive diplo modifiers and your religion being spread to more and more cities....causing the benefits from a shrine to increase.

If you a straight War Mongering, don't worry so much and keep stomping at Paganism. Although Theocracy can help immensely with the XP.

 

[soarom]

Well, I'm now playing as the Inca, and they seem quite apt for this kind of game. Their financial trait helps with money and their aggressive trait, coupled with the nice Quechua, give you the edge needed to expand safely in the beginning without worrying about barbarians and hungry neighbors.
Will I be able to hold on as a non religious civilization? We'll see. A few religions have already been founded (now in early ADs), none of them by any civilization I know.