Is Laissez-Faire Capitalism [a la Industrial Revolution] Good or Bad Long-Term?

Originally posted by newfangle


Here is the moral problem with such regulations. What happens if I, as the CEO of a corporation, does not want to enforce strict safety measures in my building? The government's only alternative is TO FORCE ME to give in to their demands. Thus, the morally vacuous comprimises in mixed economies become aparent.

However, if my lack of safety measures causes an employee to be killed, I am charged with murder.

The corporation would ignore the standards needed to avoid employee fatalities. If there were one, they'd hide the body if they could. If not, they'd spend their excessive profits on high priced lawyers to get them off or maybe even just flee the country to some Pacific nonextradition country they own.

It would not work.
 
Originally posted by cgannon64
Governement intervention is necessary. A moderation between state control and totally free markets is the ideal. What we have now is pretty good.

You fail to understand that you will only lose to complete state control given enough time.

As soon as you start making irrational comprimises to a statist regime, they will only gain more power.

Bush is a perfect example. He may have lowered taxes for the rich (something which I will defend), but in the process he imposed such things as homeland security.

There can be no comprimise between people and state. The people will lose every time because the state can only enforce its views through force, thus making it wrong.

100% capitalism is the only system where physical force (unless in defense) is absolutely prohibited.

People are quick to spew what's "realistic" and what "works" but they fail to even grasp the notion of right and wrong. This sort of thinking only fuels the morally bankrupt societies will live in, which will inevitably fuel the power and dominance of the state.
 
Originally posted by superslug


The corporation would ignore the standards needed to avoid employee fatalities. If there were one, they'd hide the body if they could. If not, they'd spend their excessive profits on high priced lawyers to get them off or maybe even just flee the country to some Pacific nonextradition country they own.

It would not work.

Start presenting your arguments with some sort of reasoning.

By the by, making text bold doesn't make it any more true.
 
Anyone whose been around long enough to have some experience with corporations and governments will immediately recognize my reasoning even if they disagree with it.
 
Whether or not minimum wage is enforced in irrational countries like China or Thailand or Mexico or Canada is irrelavent. They aren't capitalist.

But our modern capitalism couldn't function without these corrupt cheapass-labor countries. You have there a paradox.

For your sake, I'd better elaborate.

Hoo boy :rolleyes: how will I ever be able to understand your erudite explanations?

Here is the moral problem with such regulations. What happens if I, as the CEO of a corporation, does not want to enforce strict safety measures in my building? The government's only alternative is TO FORCE ME to give in to their demands. Thus, the morally vacuous comprimises in mixed economies become aparent.

However, if my lack of safety measures causes an employee to be killed, I am charged with murder.


So it's better to wait until people start getting killed. I get it.
 
Our modern capitalism isn't capitalism, so that point ends there. :)

As for all the killing... well hopefully the thought of lifetime imprisonment is enough to get an exec to impliment safety measures.

its better than pre-judging him a la Minority Report.
 
Having certain elements controlled by a central authority makes good sense from a rational point of view.

We as a state control certain resources (air, water, land, etc.) that need to be protected and distributed equitably. Also, it seems to me that the people of a state have the right to decide what sort of physical environment they want to live in.

Who decides? Who profits? How do we protect? How do we enforce? Who pays? What is exploitation?

On the issue of safety measures, there will always be accidents. How do you distinguish between legitimate accidents that are in the nature of life, and ones that could have been avoided by implementing certain safety measures? You need a central authority.

I have worked in very dangerous laboratories with very dangerous materials and procedures. There is a balance that must be met between safety for the workers and the ability to do the work necessary in a finite amount of time. It cannot be left entirely up to employers to strike the balance, though they should have major input.

There is also the matter of infrastructure and agreement on standards. It takes a high level of initial investment to build - roads, electric lines, sewer systems, etc. There only needs to be one such system in each case, and typically there is not room for a number of different systems. This is the current battle being fought over the cable, telephone, and even electrical lines that are in the vast majority of our houses.

Public health is another area where a central authority is needed. Vaccination and purity standards for water are good examples of this.

Thus, there must be taxes of some description. Not necessarily income tax, but some way for the central authority to acquire capital. Even if you want to limit the government to simply providing protection for its citizens (which btw is a highly ambiguous statement).

There is also the issue of social unrest. Industry needs a stable society to make putting investments in factories, etc. worthwhile.

I am very much behind a free market economy, but I recognize the need for a central authority.

You have also made a number of statements that are highly questionable:

The people will lose every time because the state can only enforce its views through force, thus making it wrong.

Enforcement of rules, such as you advocate (putting people in prison for murder) will take the exercise of force. Especially if you want to apply those rules to people with money and power (execs). Further, someone has to decide who has the legitimacy to enforce any rules you make (or the state decides on), which is the exercise of another type of force. Ever hear the term ‘tyranny of the majority’? again there is a delicate balance to be met.

100% capitalism is the only system where physical force (unless in defense) is absolutely prohibited.

This is a totally bizarre thing to say, why would this be true? The only way to achieve this is through a strong central authority, as I note above. There are many systems that one can imagine where physical force is absolutely prohibited.
 
Laissez-faire Capitalism inevitably leads to the exploitation and oppression of the big majority of the people, history should have shown that even to those unable to see it in theory.
As its opposite, Communism, it is an ideology that proposes freedom in theory and produces oppression in reality.
 
Originally posted by Hitro
Laissez-faire Capitalism inevitably leads to the exploitation and oppression of the big majority of the people, history should have shown that even to those unable to see it in theory.
As its opposite, Communism, it is an ideology that proposes freedom in theory and produces oppression in reality.

Totally agree. First we had the right side ---> liberalism and capitalism. Sure, the system worked....as long as you don't care about 98% of the people being exploited. Exploited really badly. On the long-term? It was destined to die, social revolutions saved it though, it never saw that point. See: in this system, the rich get richer, and the poor get poorer. In the end, there's no one to buy products of the rich people anymore. Everyone that could afford one, has one. That's what you'll get. Economically it does not work long-term. Besides: a government is much better and much more effective at creating goods like roads, mainports, etc.
Then there were some revolutions that did their job. Shorter days, education, higher wages, safety, etc. That sure changed things, the right way. In some countries though, it went way too far to the left. Communism is one of the greatest ideas ever, but it's an utopia. It didn't work, it doesn't work and it probably will never work.
Now, here in the western world at least, we have a beautiful mix of socialism, democracy and capitalism. A different market type than capitalism (free market) does not work I think. A economy does not work without a certain amount of important rules either though. I think we have found a really nice balance...although I must say I like the Dutch and Swedish systems much better than f.e. the American. That's the leftist in me. :D
 
Hey guys, I’m a bit of a latecomer to this thread, excuse me while I play catch-up. Newfangle, I’m trying to understand your proposed replacement for the current system, and I have a few questions….

In capitalism, a government exists for the sole reason of providing protection for its citizens.


And what, exactly, does it protect them from? Presumably, it protects them from each other. But is that all? Does it protect them from disease, by ensuring clean drinking water and decent living spaces? Does it protect them from fraud, by enforcing truth in advertising? Does it protect them from “moral corruption,” by screening pornography?

You can justify a whole lot of laws under the guise of “protection.” I think you need to be a little more specific.

As for things like child labour, the blame can be put squarely on the parents for a variety of reasons.

Ok, that’s great. It’s the parents fault. How, exactly, does that help the child? The child is the innocent that needs protecting. It doesn’t matter whose fault his situation is. As long as it isn’t of his own making, he shouldn’t have to suffer the consequences of it.

Also, if the use of force is barred in a capitalist society, how does the government collect enough income to function? Presumably, it cannot mandate that people pay taxes. Do you believe that people will simply donate out of the goodness of their hearts?
 
I agree with many points, if we didn't industrialize, the middle class wouldn't have grown. I also think industrialization is necessary, think of it like this, a world just like the one 1,000 years ago environmentally, but with the latest technology. I think all the damge industrialization does is eventually negated by the discovery of new technologies.
 
Originally posted by newfangle
Laissez faire capitalism is the only system that will ever be viable in the long term. Why? Because it is the only morally correct economic theory. Since it is based completely on human rationality and reality itself, no other system has the same long term potential.

It is absolutely imperative to point out that 100% capitalism is not anarchy. Anarchy implies mob rule. In capitalism, a government exists for the sole reason of providing protection for its citizens.

Elaborating on that, I will present a variety of situations that I assume will be thrown at me.

Let's say some rich multinational corporation simply dumps waste into a river because it can. In today's society, we'd fine them. They'd consider that another business expense and continue doing it.

In a rational society, things would be different. Let's say a child is swimming in the river and dies from the toxins. The board of directors at this company will not be charged civily, but criminally . They will be charged with murder because they have destroyed the ability for another human being to reason.

As for things like child labour, the blame can be put squarely on the parents for a variety of reasons. Either the parents failed to realize that having kids means paying for them, or they are incapable of rational thought, and force their kids to work. This use of force is barred from the capitalist society.

I will take more examples as they come.

Also, I'd like to clarify that the time of the Industrial Revolution was still not pure capitalism. I will, however, advocate that it is infinitely better than any time prior in human history.

i wont bother replying to your trite and glib randism but you obviously need a short introductory course to anarchism.

the an-prefix means without. archy means "rulers". i hope youll be able to figure out for yourself why anarchy w the property "mob rule" ("anarcho-oligarchy"=oxymoron if i ever heard one) is just as impossible as a square w the property "round".
 
Originally posted by newfangle
Laissez faire capitalism is the only system that will ever be viable in the long term. Why? Because it is the only morally correct economic theory. Since it is based completely on human rationality and reality itself, no other system has the same long term potential.

The fundamental determinant of human action is not rationale but emotions. They form the foundation of our opinions and considerations much of the time without our awareness. You may draw conclusions with logic and reasoning but how you feel about the topic and the values you tack on to it are paramount to what course of action you will take to rationalize whichever ideology/belief/philosophy you support. Some people don't even bother rationalizing and base their 'reasoning' on faith: the feeling of knowing the truth.

The system may be based on human rationality but that rationality is built upon an element of human irrationality. There are probable reasons for why certain emotions are triggered but the emotions themselves are not always elicited for a "reasonable" cause.

In an 'absolutely' rational world we would euthanize the terminally ill, handicapped and ******** rather than 'waste' precious resources seeing to their continued, and highly unproductive, existence. Of course, our morals forbid it. But what are those based on?
 
Originally posted by newfangle

Here is the moral problem with such regulations. What happens if I, as the CEO of a corporation, does not want to enforce strict safety measures in my building? The government's only alternative is TO FORCE ME to give in to their demands. Thus, the morally vacuous comprimises in mixed economies become aparent.

So it is moral to not give a damn about your employees' safety ? Please.

Originally posted by newfangle

However, if my lack of safety measures causes an employee to be killed, I am charged with murder.

Unfortunately though, that employee will by then already be dead.
 
Originally posted by jack merchant


So it is moral to not give a damn about your employees' safety ? Please.



Unfortunately though, that employee will by then already be dead.

It isn't moral not to give a damn about your employees' safety, but emotions make us who we are, and some people just don't care.
 
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