Is Using The Science Slider Good For Score In "Easier" Histographic Games?

[Spoonwood]

Alright, I'm rather confident that for like Emperor or below, getting The Republic slingshot works out good for score. One can grow cities with irrigation then and get more productive cities.

But, the luxury slider can increase score. And increasing one's territory also increases score. But, does researching faster to Steam Power, Replaceable Parts, and Sanitation help? I kind of guess that the luxury slider helps more than research, though that's more of a guess.

Do libraries or universities pay off score wise for faster research, assuming that you can handle things militarily either way? I somewhat confidently at the moment guess that they do not. Putting shields towards military would help more with score.

 

[superslug]

I personally never run up my luxury slider until the map is conquered, railroaded, and all my cities are building solar plants and recycling centers. No real reasoning behind it though, I just prefer the simplicity over 540 turns.

 

[Spoonwood]

Thanks for sharing superslug.

 

[Bartleby]

I suppose the luxury slider doesn't have so much of an effect beyond the core though. I've always tried to research as fast as possible using a blend of libs/unis & science slider in the core, and making unhappy citizens into scientists where possible elsewhere.

 

[BlackBetsy]

I loathe using the luxury slider personally as it takes away from what I really want (gold and science). In a histographic game, I typically only turn it up after I hit the dom limit; not sure how many points I lose from that. So I've always been a science slider is good, unless I don't need to tech. Science - better military - more land - more citizens!

If the Science slider is for tech, and you don't need tech because the AI are giving it to you (excluding Genetics for Cure for Cancer after you've reached dom limit), then I'd say no?

 

[Spoonwood]

I suppose the luxury slider doesn't have so much of an effect beyond the core though. I've always tried to research as fast as possible using a blend of libs/unis & science slider in the core, and making unhappy citizens into scientists where possible elsewhere.

The luxury slider can have a decent, but not large, effect beyond the core once cities grow enough. The city center always has at least 4 commerce I think? It's either a size 4 or 5 for the smallest size where a city always has at least 2 un-corrupted commerce in a Republic. So, 50% luxuries will have an effect over 40% luxuries in either cities greater than size 4 or size 5.

A rule of thumb I've used before in histographic games for non-core cities was that any unhappy citizens would become specialists in non-core cities, since specialists score more immediately and eventually civil engineers come as desired. Even before rails, that implies that a size 6 city with all irrigated grasslands could make 6 science per turn from just specialists and not have a food loss.

 

[Spoonwood]

I loathe using the luxury slider personally as it takes away from what I really want (gold and science).

Yea, in most games, gold and science as more useful has the better logic to it. But, in histographic games, the luxury slider is more score for this turn by more content/happy citizens. Though, we also want to have the ability to get to hospitals, replaceable parts, etc. also. Science and gold can also help get to the domination limit in histographic games so can do more than using the luxury slider sometimes at least.

Science - better military - more land - more citizens!

That can be for sure. But, I'm not so sure about that at lower levels.

Anyways thanks! It seems to me that we, or at least I, we don't have clear information here as to what works out better. So, all opinions have had their use for sure!

 

[Spoonwood]

Do libraries or universities pay off score wise for faster research, assuming that you can handle things militarily either way?

I have a Standard Emperor game going on a 60% pangea with The Maya with all scientific opponents. The starting position had a grassland cow and a river. We had a few turns where with slower research on Education for some upgrades, but then we went back to heavily invested research. At one point I had a monopoly on Metallurgy and had 6 turn research on Military Tradition. We still hadn't gotten into a war, other than one where the Byzantines declared on me, when we were exporting some luxury, which soured, if not ruined, The Maya's per turn deal trading reputation. We still managed to get Steam Power and Medicine with some gold saved from saving up during a pre-industrial golden age. We hadn't started any war until we had Military Tradition. We're now reached the Industrial age and have a decent pace to finish Electricity in a golden age. A few scientists have gotten used, but we haven't gotten anywhere close the point of having optimal specialist farms. We did get an SGL on Theory of Gravity with Magnetism still not learned, which got used on Smith's Trading Company I think 2 turns later.

The aforementioned game might be a little on the better side, but I think even if research weren't as good, games still could end up in a rather good position to get to Replacable Parts and Sanitation quickly.

So, my answer to the above question is no. Libraries and universities do not pay off in general, if the game ends up low level enough, and the player has good enough management of trading, growth, and the sliders.

As for the general question, I think the answer is 'yes'. Research ideally will get prefered over using the luxury slider until rails get up for quicker acquisition of territory. And that probably implies also researching similarly until Replacable Parts and Sanitation get discovered (or traded for) also.

I personally never run up my luxury slider until the map is conquered, railroaded, and all my cities are building solar plants and recycling centers.

I remember doing maximum research until Ecology for mass transit centers in my Deity Huge game. But, as I recall at the time, I didn't believe such theoretically optimal. Pollution ends up greater, but I don't think it that great. Once you have Sanitation and Replacable Parts, I believe more use of the luxury slider ends up better rather than investing in research. Eventually, citizens can become scientists and that can suffice for research.

I don't see any reason to keep factories around. So I don't see any reason to build recycling and solar plants in terms of game mechanics.

 

[Spoonwood]

Oh dang... I forgot or hadn't observed when I wrote the above that Commercial Docks reduce pollution. Apparently, it produces only one additional of the hazard/pollution warning signs. Does a recylcing center reduce pollution of a commercial dock? The civilopedia says that a recycling center reduces pollution caused by city improvements.

By selling off commercial docks in some saves of Drazek and EMan, I have seen at least two commercial docks resulting in an extra happy or content citizen with the use of fewer entertainers. Commercial docks costing 160 shields and can change content citizens to happy citizens unlike temples, cathedrals, and colosseums.

 

[BlackBetsy]

Oh dang... I forgot or hadn't observed when I wrote the above that Commercial Docks reduce pollution. Apparently, it produces only one additional of the hazard/pollution warning signs. Does a recylcing center reduce pollution of a commercial dock? The civilopedia says that a recycling center reduces pollution caused by city improvements.

By selling off commercial docks in some saves of Drazek and EMan, I have seen at least two commercial docks resulting in an extra happy or content citizen with the use of fewer entertainers. Commercial docks costing 160 shields and can change content citizens to happy citizens unlike temples, cathedrals, and colosseums.

In my histographic games, I sold off commercial docks to reduce pollution. I use them in science games only at this point.

 

[Spoonwood]

In my histographic games, I sold off commercial docks to reduce pollution. I use them in science games only at this point.

Yea, there's a tradeoff between more pollution to clean, which I sometimes find annoying, and more happiness/contentedness possible. Their use for score depends on the size of the city, if you can/want to get and maintain war happiness, and whether a temple, colosseum, or cathedral could be better... if expanding cultural borders isn't a problem, which it can be isolated coastal spots, the luxury slider, and the status of Cure for Cancer. Also, Bach's Cathedral possibly. In my current game I have Athens on a grassland cow, but it has Bach's Cathedral.

But if a city has a mass transit center and only a commercial dock and hospital, it only has two pollution icons. I suppose that could be double the probability, but that could also be 1% probability of pollution for a metropolis with just a hospital, and 2% probability for a metropolis with a metropolis and a commercial dock, or 2% and 4% respectively. And I don't know if double the probability has more relevance or if the difference in probabilities has more relevance.

 

[Spoonwood]

I still have 10 armies. I didn't think to put the armies in the worst food rich spots ahead of time. I think I'll go down to 3 armies at the end. The city which gets the last army, I think, will be Iconium:

Having 9 sea squares, we have 9 tiles which don't count towards the domination which produce 2 food per turn. It has 9 coast tiles also producing 2 food per turn, a whale tile, and the city center. It can produce (20 + 18 + 3) = 42 food per turn as a metropolis for 21 worked tiles exactly. Supposing 42 points in a turn having 21 worked tiles, we have 42 / (9 + 1) = 4.2 points per turn for those that count towards the domination limit. I think that's well above the average possible of points per tile counting towards the domination limit for spots on most maps.

It likely needs a courthouse, police station, and commercial dock and heavy use of the luxury slider for all citizens working tiles to become happy. And it has greater need for population imported from locations with higher food locations. Then pollution can come from the hospital. If it's exactly 8 worker points, and industrious workers produce 2 worker points per turn, and pollution needs 8 worker points to get cleaned, then since a flatland tile needs 4 workers to get cleaned in a single turn, it needs 12 workers either ready to get imported or 12 workers ready on the mountain to clean it in a single turn.

In contrast let's consider Uqkish:

If no other cities use the unworked tiles, it could have 7 grassland tiles for 4 food per turn each, the city center for 3 food per turn, 4 coast squares for 2 food per turn, and 2 sea squares for 2 food per turn. (28 + 3 + 8 + 4) = 43 food per turn over 14 worked tiles. 28 points in a turn possible for the worked tiles. (43 - (2 x 14)) = 15 food left for specialists. So, 7-8 specialists for contentedness. So, 7 or 8 more points on a given turn. So, 35-36 points in a given turn. Plus maybe something like a few thousandths of a point for future tech for scientific research from specialists. But, only 12 worked tiles count towards the domination limit. Thus, I estimate (35.5 / 12) = 2.959 points per turn for this city for tiles that count towards the domination limit.

Iconium is better for score once it gets setup. However, Uqkish now outperforms Iconium for score, and until enough of Econium's sea squares get into use.

2.959 didn't make sense to me. But, each grassland tile is 3 points (2 points for the worked tile and a specialist) per tile. 7 grassland tiles is 21 points. The city center can get thought of having bonus food, and thus 2 points + half of a specialist + another specialist, for 3.5 points. Coast squares and sea squares are 2 points each. So, 21 + 3.5 + (2 x 4) + (2 x 2) = 24.5 + 12 = 36.5 points. I don't know how I got a higher number than the above. But still (36.5 / 12 ) = 3.04 points per turn for tiles that count towards the domination limit.

 

[Spoonwood]

I assume @EMan used a spreadsheet for his calculations before. But, I have little idea of how he looks over a huge map and figures out the best possible locations to settle. I've found his saves to have some tundra areas to my surprise without doing any calculations on those areas, apparently for higher usage of sea squares.

On my map where our soldiers auto-razed the last Persian town, I have this spot:

7 sea squares from planting a settler on top of the rubble! 14 points per turn. 9 coast tiles by my count ... 18 points. 2 hills for 4 points. 2 points per turn to balance out the hills (this may not be exact enough) for the city center. 3 points from the fish. 7 + 9 + 2 + 1 + 1 = 20 tiles counted. This isn't accurate, I need the grid.

7 sea squares, 10 coast squares, 1 fish square, 2 hills, and the city center. 21 tiles. 14 points from the sea squares, 20 from the coast squares, 4 for the hills, one less specialist because of the hills, so 2.5 points from the city center, 3 points from the fish square, for 14 + 20 + 3 + 4 + 2.5 = 43.5 points. Now we divide by (21 - 7) = 14 those tiles that count towards the domination limit. (43.5 / 14) = 3.1 points per worked tile. It has more score potential than Uqkish, and Uqkish looks good for this map score wise.

But now, I need at least one galleon to ferry population, put enough workers or slaves on the hill, or have them ready to import when needed. The other issue comes as that now I need to abandon another city (I have something of a like-dislike relationship, for lack of a better term, with disbanding cities). Many cities have grown for a while now (or had high population after getting captured and the resistance got quelled!), so ideally, a whole bunch of settlers or workers would come from one or two cities to get abandoned. Place a worker or a slave or two underneath the city right before it gets abandoned.

But that also means that I need capital for at least occasionally rushing workers or settlers, or rework tiles in the core with less population. Future tech counts little for score, and mass transit centers could theoretically wait. A purchase of a galleon or send it out from some core area. Then also, when do I abandon the shrunken city or metropolis?

And for metropolises with scientists some will need switched to entertainers.

But we have so much of the map, and can do research at a decent pace on Sid. What sense can we make of this? Is the score of future tech horribly designed or have we missed something here? Is real-world research motivated more by other nations than our own? Or other people? But if so, isn't learning potentially motivated by fear or insecurity with respect to other people?