Knowing the size of stacks

[Historical Atze]

Hi, you probably do not know me as I've almost never posted in this forum before. But you certainly know Eivind as creator of scens like Blitzkrieg or Belle Epoque. Some days ago I had a discussion about a "trick" in Civ2 I discovered years ago and which is used on German Webring Forum in every scenario since then. Eivind, however, supposed it to be cheating.
It goes as follows.

First, there's a stack visible to you and you want to know its size then you right click on the stack and then decrease the size of the window to the lower left where the topmost unit is visible. When the window is small enough the unit disappears and instead the window sais something like "10 more units".

Second, the problem with cities is that this trick doesn't work as you see no units. This is unless you have a city within 2 squares range of the other city or there's a unit moving into the city and you can see both the square where it came from and the city with a single unit of yours. Then you see the topmost unit within the city and can apply the "trick" as described above.

What do you think about it. Have you heard about it before? Do you use it? Do you also believe it to be cheating?
Greetings Atze

PS: I hope I posted in the right subforum and there is no thread about this already - I have found nothing.

 

[Peaster]

Wow! This seems really powerful, especially for MP/PBEM games, where we see stacks in fortresses fairly often. Also, in SP conquest games against a big AI. I guess it should be illegal, except it is impossible to detect, so I dunno... maybe it's best to let it go.

Note (to those who follow instructions as badly as I do): He is refering to the status window in the lower right part of your Civ2 screen. Use your mouse to raise its bottom edge.

 

[Ace]

Its a neat trick, but it only gives you the total number of units in a stack, not the types. Is there a real advantage in knowing exactly how many units are in an AI stack?

 

[Duke of Marlbrough]

If you have an idea that you can kill the units, but need to make sure you have enough to attack and kill the stack at once. It could also be used to tell where players may be 'faking' to have piles of units but, in reality, only have two units stacked.

Somewhat useful in MP games, but not so much for single player games.

 

[Peaster]

In SP, the AI doesn't usually make big stacks, except in cities (or in Wrath). I haven't quite figured out when this trick works on cities, but it could be a huge help in deciding whether to attack a walled city. With 1 unit inside, you attack. With 5 units inside, you wait until they wander outside, or you use dips to take down the walls.

 

[Magic_gorter]

Wow! This seems really powerful, especially for MP/PBEM games, where we see stacks in fortresses fairly often. Also, in SP conquest games against a big AI. I guess it should be illegal, except it is impossible to detect, so I dunno... maybe it's best to let it go.QUOTE]

If this trick can't be detected it is best to allow it. The only thing is that it is important that everybody knows of the trick (especcialy the ones playing GOTM). If it's allowed it should be mentioned on "the rules" page.

 

[Historical Atze]

It's as I said. On German Webring Forum we've been using the "trick" since I discovered it. It's especially nice in stackable-PBEMs if you know which of the two or more stacks really is big and powerful and which is not.
Also it is undetectable but if everyone knows about it no-one has an advantage, so it is fair again and I do not think that illegaling it would be sound.

 

[Peaster]

I mentioned this trick in my 2 PBEMs at Apolyton, without offering any opinion on it. NOBODY wanted to allow it ! It is undetectable, but I guess PBEMs have to operate on an honor system; there are lots of other ways to cheat.

It sounds like nobody here at CFC is bothered by it, and that it will be legal in GOTM/HOF games. Thanks for sharing it. It is better for all to know a trick than just a few.

 

[Historical Atze]

It sounds like nobody here at CFC is bothered by it, and that it will be legal in GOTM/HOF games. Thanks for sharing it. It is better for all to know a trick than just a few.

This is why I opened the thread. Actually until my talk with Eivind I thought that this would be well known already and only didn't make it to our forum.

Yet I am quite disturbed that everyone thinks it to be a cheat. When we play at GWF there is no discussion about it, it is just used because it is there - but everyone as he wishes.
Greetings

 

[SlowThinker]

Originally posted by Magic_gorter
If this trick can't be detected it is best to allow it.

This is indeed a strange argument for me. Then you would have to allow to reveal all map for example.
I second Peaster that Civ2 must be based on honor system.

Originally posted by Historical Atze
Yet I am quite disturbed that everyone thinks it to be a cheat.

IMO cheats are tricks that you agreed to be considered cheats.

I would rather orient the discussion other way: Would it make the game more interesting?
From one side it would cause that some surprise and suspense was lost. (Similarly I consider 'near city XX' notes to be bad because you can't build secret strategic cities)
From other side it might make the game less fortuitous (poker-like) and more strategic (chess-like).
It is hard to say ... hmmm ... probably secret stacks are better ...

Edit: I meant a MP/PBEM game. For SP game it would be better to forbid it IMO (more surprise, also it helps only human)

 

[Historical Atze]

IMO cheats are tricks that you agreed to be considered cheats.

Yes, you are right. But I am astonished that you independently from each other come to the belief that it is a cheat. Where I come from this possibility has never been discussed ...

Thanks anyway for your considerations .

There was something I wanted to say ... I have forgotten what it was.

 

[PaulT]

I don't really want to lose the satisfaction of attacking what I think is a settler and a phalanx and seeing "8 Units Destroyed"...But it is a cool trick. I won't really use it, but thanks anyway.

 

[Historical Atze]

It's more useful for MP I'd say. Especially with stackable-scens.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

I did not know about this either. Thank you Historical Azte. My personal opinion is that this should be allowed; caveat: I have never played anything other than single player games.

I used the trick early this morning in GOTM70 to find out the size of a barbarian stack.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

In my opinion, anything found in the Cheat menu is a cheat. If it's not there, it's fair game!

 

[Millman]

Its a neat trick, but it only gives you the total number of units in a stack, not the types. Is there a real advantage in knowing exactly how many units are in an AI stack?

You're asking a question, Ace?

Sometimes you have to get a shot in or two, so I need to know if my veteran battleship at half power can take on four normal enemy destoryers in one spot.

I play with fewer enemy civs meaning it is unlikely they will be vets.

 

[Ace]

Millman,

If your battered battleship attacks a stack of destroyers, it only has to sink the first one, and the stack is destroyed, just like a land battle with no fortress or city involved.