Kuriotates suggestions (and one Lumbermill suggestion)

[Nefelia]

Maybe its just me, but I've found Kuriotates to be very difficult to play at Emperor difficulty. The extremely limited number of cities along with the low happy-cap is crippling at the beginning.

A few suggestions:

1) Lower the cost of the Tailor and Jeweller (sp?) by at least half. These buildings have the potential to help out with the happy-cap early into the game, but are much too expensive.

The impact of these buildings is also often delayed since the resouces are often in forests (Silk), jungles (Dye, Gems), or completely inaccessible (Pearls). Allowing these buildings to be built early on at a very cheap price will not give the Kuriotates an overpowering advantage.

2) Allow players to change their Adaptive trait at shorter intervals. Or better yet...

3) Allow players to change their Adaptive trait at the time of their choosing via a menu. Abuse can be prevented by implementing a minimum amount of turns between trait switches (much like the minimum 10 turn wait between revolutions).


The final suggestion applies for all civs/leaders (except Elves, of course):

Allow Lumber Mills on Ancient Forests. If Ancient Forests with Lumber Mills are considered too strong:
- adjust GoN civic to give -1 food to lumber-mills on Ancient Forests; or
- adjust lumber-mills to give -1 food on Ancient Forests

I don't know if lumber-mills can be adjusted as per my suggestion, but I hope so. Come mid/late-game I have to either let Ancient Forests sit as they are, or I can chop them down, Bloom the tile, wait for the New Forest to grow into a Forest, and then build my Lumber Mill.

 

[Caradoc]

I've been playing on Monarch, and this may not work as well at Emperor, but by pressing hard on the Arcane path, I've been able to get to Archmages in time to solve the happiness problem without too much pain. (I shamelessly use the Tower slingshot.) During the waiting period, I cap population growth at around 8 and get all the production I can, while building farms to use for a population explosion once the Archmages arrive.

 

[daladinn]

at higher difficulties yoru going to find cardith lorda leaning heavily in the direction of the OO. none of the other religions can support the growth he needs.

city 1 = tower of complacency
city 2 = hemah with law 3 (takes around 5 turns after building)
city 3+ = archmages with law 3

plus the OO give nice mellee disciple units , lunatics , severous , and the ability to build the alter.

the other religions force you into hard choices like wether or not to keep some forests , or just dont offer much to you (runes).

 

[kumquatelvis]

What about the Ashen Veil? I did awesomely as the Kuriotates on Emperor sacrificing the weak and using law mana to keep to rabble in line. My three cities were around size 50-60, completely happy*, and very very productive. And my capital was even more so, as I decided to stick with God-King for the length of the game ('cause heck, who wants to give up being a god?).


*If you use magic (or put something in the water), is it real happiness?

 

[Caradoc]

For Cardath, how are you using his Adaptive trait? I've found Philosophical and Expansionistic to be good in themselves -- gets you Scholarship and Public Healers for nothing so you can afford to spend more on other Civics. Later on, I'm thinking Arcane would be nice, though.

 

[brainpan]

I like Ashen Veil (for sacrifice the weak) and financial adaptive trait while playing Kuriotates. An early Tower of Complacency is pretty much a must, in my opinion.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Unyielding order and the Tower of complacency don't change happiness, they just eliminate unhappiness. The happiness is unaffected by the magic, so, sure its real.

I was under the impression that OO was better suited for the Kurios because of the extra culture given by its temple. Settlements can't build temples, but riest can build them in settlements. Since settlements have -100% gold, -100% research rate, but only -25% culture, the special bonuses from AV or Runes temples would be negated, but OO temples' would not.

 

[brainpan]

In the most general of terms (which is the spirit of this discussion), I can't imagine giving up +10% research, +10% economy, and 1/2 price food for the sake of 3 + 20% culture in newly built settlements.

 

[KingOfLands]

I've been having good results by starting with Raiders as my first adaptive switch and leveling a bunch of Scouts/Hunters to capture as many happiness-producing animals as I can find. Your mileage may vary by map type and speed.

 

[kumquatelvis]

I almost always go with financial if I have Adaptive. And I didn't bother with settlements; I found it easier just to raze everything (I was the Ashen Veil after all). Well, ok, I kept one out of every four or so enemy cities just to keep some sort of border (mostly so settlers wouldn't keep trickling in).

 

[Fezek]

When I play as the Kuriotates I make sure there are Ljosalfar in the game. I use FoL, and go to war with the elves so I can get their workers. Plant forests everywhere, elven cottages... Switch to the Guardian civic, and all those national parks keep the population happy for a long time!

 

[Blakmane]

kuriotates are a difficult civ to play as, but they are by no means weak. Once their mega-cities become large enough to use the 3rd ring they can quickly become unstoppable wonder/army producing machines.

IMO they don't need any buffs.

 

[brainpan]

kuriotates are a difficult civ to play as, but they are by no means weak. Once their mega-cities become large enough to use the 3rd ring they can quickly become unstoppable wonder/army producing machines.

IMO they don't need any buffs.

I agree (but keep in mind I've only played as them a few times ).

For me, the biggest hinderance while playing as Kuriotates is that I hate using my uber-cities (no matter what civ I play as) for rote unit production. I prefer to set aside a city or two dedicated to unit production so my financial cities can concentrate on infrastructure, Great Person generation, and wonders. I usually struggle in the effort to build up a powerful army as Kuriotates.

 

[Nefelia]

I prefer FoL for the early happiness fix. Hidden Paths comes around earlier and more cheaply than the Tower of Complacency and arch-mages. Besides, I'd still have the option of using 3 arch-mages in my three larger cities to take care of happiness, though getting to those arch-mages would no longer be a burning priority.

As for Adaptive Trait: I tend to use Raiders in the beginning and switch to Financial for the rest of the game. I'll fit in a Philosophical for a bit to take advantage of scholarship, then switch back to Financial.

My latest emperor game has gone well enough, so maybe Blakmane is right. Still, I consider my suggestions less 'buffing' than fine-tuning.

 

[Nefelia]

When I play as the Kuriotates I make sure there are Ljosalfar in the game. I use FoL, and go to war with the elves so I can get their workers. Plant forests everywhere, elven cottages... Switch to the Guardian civic, and all those national parks keep the population happy for a long time!

Me too. Although in my current game the Elves are on the other continent and friendy with me. For now I'm using Ancient forests (on grassland) for growth and unforested land for cottages.

My biggest problem now is that my neighbors are all following RoK. Thankfully Raiders had given me a superior army.

Damn...just remembered that the Svalvatar have elven workers too. They are on the southern side of my continent. . .. .. .. ., I'll have to go to war with them. Yippee!

 

[brainpan]

I prefer FoL for the early happiness fix. Hidden Paths comes around earlier and more cheaply than the Tower of Complacency and arch-mages.

The tower gives the advantage of a huge and immediate benefit while Hidden Paths relies upon further efforts to create possibly undevelopable forest tiles. Also, if you pop a great engineer, the tower can be built very early in the game. Finally, if you go the FoL route, you wont be able to make use of the impressive Sacrifice the Weak civic.

As for Adaptive Trait: I tend to use Raiders in the beginning and switch to Financial for the rest of the game.

Interesting. Do you use the initial Raider trait as part of an early centaur rush strategy? How many cities do you try to take before switching to Financial trait?

Anyway, I'll have to give your Fellowship of the Leaves strategy a try this weekend when I get home. I'm curious to see how it compares to my Sacrifice the Weak/Tower of Comlacency strategy.

 

[Pandemonis]

[...]

As for Adaptive Trait: I tend to use Raiders in the beginning and switch to Financial for the rest of the game. I'll fit in a Philosophical for a bit to take advantage of scholarship, then switch back to Financial.

[...]

I've always neglected the Raiders trait in my previous games, until I started a game with a Perpentach that chose to be Raiders, Spiritual and Philospohical. The early extra XPs (Ragind barbarians + early Raiders = very strong units quickly without effort) gave me a few unstoppable units, and playing on High Plains the food was never an issue to pop GP to rush some techs.

For th ehijacking, the Balseraphs usually combine fat-cross and happiness pretty quickly, but thats probably due to my early hunting too and everything was well from midgame - Emperor level. The cultural win was at hand, but I was well settled and curious to play with the Ashen Veil at this point - and I basically ruined it. I couldnt win or lose my war against Ethne the White, and both our empires were paralyzed by the war effort against each other.

 

[Nefelia]

The tower gives the advantage of a huge and immediate benefit while Hidden Paths relies upon further efforts to create possibly undevelopable forest tiles. Also, if you pop a great engineer, the tower can be built very early in the game. Finally, if you go the FoL route, you wont be able to make use of the impressive Sacrifice the Weak civic.
Interesting. Do you use the initial Raider trait as part of an early centaur rush strategy? How many cities do you try to take before switching to Financial trait?

Anyway, I'll have to give your Fellowship of the Leaves strategy a try this weekend when I get home. I'm curious to see how it compares to my Sacrifice the Weak/Tower of Complacency strategy.

Granted, relying on Hidden Paths/Guardians has some disadvantages, but not the ones you describe.

Most cities will have more than enough Forest/Jungle* tiles to bring the happy-cap up to 20-30 instantly in the early game. Hidden Paths comes early enough in the game that this is a huge boost to your cities, which should be capped at somewhere around size 7-10 depending on how many luxury resources you have nearby. Bloom, arch-mages, and other tools will be available later to take care of the remaining happiness.

Once you switch to GoN, grassland tiles with Ancient Forests will help in growing your city to a more useful size, though your commerce will suffer for it until you switch back to your cottages.

The disadvantages:
- no longer able to use Agriculture civic, making your farms much less useful to you
- enemy units can use your forests to boost their strength while they march towards your cities/improvements (a few Hunters with CombatV and WoodsmanII will help greatly against this)
- requires captured elven workers to be most effective, forcing you to consider war against Elves/Svalatar)
- defensive war against Elves can really suck

The advantages:
- Guardians of Nature affects all cities, not just one
- Comes relatively early, happy-cap can be further improved by Bloom later
- Ancient Forests offer decent Food/Hammer tiles that can't be pillaged (only really useful if you are losing a war)

Other factors:
- Drown (with OO): A good point in favour of OO strat. Not a decisive argument though, since Centaurs will be the unit of choice by that point of the game. Biggest problem past the Warrior era will be archers. I've even been surprised by how effective Cantaurs were against Crossbowmen (fresh Centaurs, with commando promotion had something like 53% odds against fresh Crossbowmen)

Flavour is another aspect. Some would rather not play an evil religion, while others may balk at being a tree hugger.


As for the Raiders trait: I tend to stick to it until the third time I am prompted to choose a trait. I try to cripple the local competition early on so I can focus on my economy afterwards without too many worries. Raiders is invaluable not only in making units stronger, but in getting them promotions faster (so they can heal more often during seiges). The Raiders trait also helps greatly while pillaging enemy lands: I'll bring a group of Centaurs with one defending Hunter (WoodsmanII) deep into enemy territory, using Forests/Jungles for defence and taking advantage of the Commando promotion to get at imrovements further away from the forests.

I'll have to try the Kuriotates with OO sometime, if only for variety. Maybe the Ashen Veil too. I tried them before with RoK...complete suck.

 

[brainpan]

Granted, relying on Hidden Paths/Guardians has some disadvantages, but not the ones you describe.

You have decided that abandoning the Agriculture civic is a disadvantage, yet you don't seem to believe that keeping that civic, and adding Sacrifice the Weak to it, is a bonus. I don't follow your reasoning.

The advantages:
- Guardians of Nature affects all cities, not just one

True, but with a maximum of three cities allowed(in normal games), the Tower and StW is likely to give you more population for quite a while, though more of it will be concentrated in a single city.

- Comes relatively early, happy-cap can be further improved by Bloom later

Again, the Tower can be built nearly as quickly as GoN civic if you know what you're doing, and you wont have to wait for bloom to take full advantage of it.

- Ancient Forests offer decent Food/Hammer tiles that can't be pillaged (only really useful if you are losing a war)

But they can't be exploited to their full potential unless you're lucky enough to be in position to capture some elvish slaves. Once again, the Tower strategy is much more reliable. You can use it no matter which AI leaders are generated or chosen.

 

[Nefelia]

You have decided that abandoning the Agriculture civic is a disadvantage, yet you don't seem to believe that keeping that civic, and adding Sacrifice the Weak to it, is a bonus. I don't follow your reasoning.

No reasoning involved. Simply an oversight due to lack of experience with AV.

But they can't be exploited to their full potential unless you're lucky enough to be in position to capture some elvish slaves. Once again, the Tower strategy is much more reliable. You can use it no matter which AI leaders are generated or chosen.

So then I'll let the next game decide. If I start with the Elves nearby, I'll go Fol. Otherwise I'll go OO.

Again, the Tower can be built nearly as quickly as GoN civic if you know what you're doing, and you wont have to wait for bloom to take full advantage of it.

My priority is to escape the early game happy-cap that limits cities to less than 10 pop. GoN accomplishes that. More options are available later to keep happy cap from ever being a problem.

I will check out OO however, since I want to try StW with Kuriotates. Getting tired of forests anyway. Still, the Kuriotates are a pretty poor Civ if they are only viable with a select 1 or 2 religions.