Lack of statistics

Bronso

Chieftain
Joined
Jul 4, 2001
Messages
4
Location
Germany
The situation in my last game: I started on a middle-sized continent and defeated my neighbours early to be alone. On the second landmass, a very large one, the Persians were the dominating power, occupying 3/4 of its area. I tried not to provoke them and build peacefully toward a spaceship victory, but when I had half of the spaceship parts, I suddenly (and surprisingly) received a message claiming „You have suffered a humiliating defeat!“.
It did not take me long to figure out that the Persians had won either culturally or per domination. My point, however, is that the game does not provide us with the necessary numbers to predict when exactly an AI-Player will reach the 2/3 area resp. 100000 cp border (in case of the domination victory, even the human player himself has to guess when he hits the border). As for being permitted to vote in the UN, there is no reliable source for your or your enemies‘ population, either. All one has is

a) Culture:
Your own total culture points in exact numbers, and the histograph to make a rough guess about the others‘.

b) Area:
The demographics state whether you are 1st, 2nd etc., but not how much is left for 2/3 of the world or which of the other civs is competing with you (except, of course, for a rough estimate on the mini-map).

c) Population:
Again, the rank in demographics, but nothing else (unless you intend to get everybody’s world map, sum up all the city sizes and figure out how much you have, but that would be rather tedious).

So what I want to say is that we need exact numbers on these three issues, gathered by embassy/spy or more detailed demographics, in order to determine which AI civ poses a threat to our own victory plans. It is really annyoing if you see another civ rising and virtually have to dice about whether they will be able to overtake you in culture/area before you have won, and whether you should take actions to deny their aspirations.
If Firaxis adds just some statistics in a future patch / the expansion pack (not too much work, I think, since the figures are computed anyway and just have to be displayed somewhere), this will eliminate such irritating „why-exactly-did-I-lose?“ experiences.
 
I think it is a good point, especially with the domination, if I were you, I'd post it in the suggestions thread or e-mail firaxis.
 
More informations about the other civs and the state of the game in general would be a godsend !
I support you in everyway !
 
I agree with you. In the meantime, check out the Utilities forum for some programs to do the counting for you, so you don't have to "eyeball":

Here's Lovro's & my Domination calculator:
Mapstat

Here's Lovro's new Apollo for the Cultural calculator:
Apollo
 
I'd settle just for a list of enemy casualties, such as we had in Civ 2.
 
Yes, more information is crucial.

I would also like to know at a glance what improvements each of my cities has built and how much are they costing me per turn. SMAC had this feature.

More info is never too much.
 
Originally posted by Alexnm
Yes, more information is crucial.

I would also like to know at a glance what improvements each of my cities has built and how much are they costing me per turn. SMAC had this feature.

More info is never too much.

Civ2 had it too.
And both had the little option "sell in every city"...
 
While I agree with the problem, I am not 100% convinced about the solution. I remember the first investigation I did making Mapstat. While I was trying to just figure out the domination victory, I was also unahppy that the game didn't provide us with this information. Some good arguments arose on the reality of it, & I settled to just try to figure out what the domination limit was (it was unknown to us before), and provide a means for curious people to know when it would happen.

While the game could become more of a mathematical race, (especially if the superior unit always won [but lets not stray too far offtopic]) some generalities seem acceptable, especially when the realists can bring forth a strong argument.

One weakness in knowing too much, is that early in the game, the player might have too much information on what is going on underneath the black cloud. That is also something that I may be accused of by making Mapstat.

That said, somehow knowing how close every one is to victory would likely make the game more exciting. As unrealistic as it might be, if you got a message saying, "The Persians are 20 squares from a domination victory!", I think you might have enjoyed the challenge to thwart them in 20.

The Space Race spying information is excellently implemented in this way, by knowing the parts made & in construction using a spy. When I do win by domination, or often culture, it is often a guess & a surprise, maybe even disappointment (see my GOTM6) when the box comes up telling me I won.

As it stands, I think the next incarnation of Civ might do better with a more exciting end game. Currently, many players say they lose interest in the latter stages of the game. Maybe the game is not in doubt. I find that there is often no real pressure to finish because the lack of the feeling of a race. Quite common is the most enjoyable part building the empire, discovery of new lands, & conquering your neighbours. What is missing, I find, is the enjoyment of winning.

Here is one thread on a previous debate on this matter:
Firaxis: Question regarding Domination victory
 
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