late game production cost too steep?

noontide

Warlord
Joined
Dec 17, 2007
Messages
267
Not sure if this has been touched upon before. I've played a couple of Immortal games and a Deity game this week (I know, it's only Tuesday), and I find myself only producing special zones and their respective buildings starting from mid-game. The reason is the production cost for wonders and even units are prohibitive. Case in point: in the Deity game my capital has a population of 12, with factory, and it still take 15 turns to produce a tank. In late game that's eons. So I always just upgrade the archers and warriors I built in ancient time all the way to the end of game, and maybe buy a couple of bombers when available and if I can afford it. I read it somewhere that several players say they always build Big Ben, I in my game never muster enough cogs to make building any mid- to late-game wonders viable. I try to overlap IZ and all that too. Am I missing something?
 
Yes, most people agree that it is absolutely essential to build industrial districts in every city, build all of the buildings in them, try to get as much adjacency as possible and take advantage of the bonuses that effect other cities within 6 tiles (from factory and later building, forgot what it's called)
 
Does Deity have any production penalties of any kind? I'm playing a King game right now, it's late game and I can produce a Tank Army from scratch in 8 turns, and that's WITHOUT Lightning Warfare. If I I had Lightning Warfare on, I could shave that down to 4 or 5 turns. That's a Tank Army, not a Tank.
 
Yes, most people agree that it is absolutely essential to build industrial districts in every city, build all of the buildings in them, try to get as much adjacency as possible and take advantage of the bonuses that effect other cities within 6 tiles (from factory and later building, forgot what it's called)

But my point is I seem to be building the IZ buildings for the sake of it, i.e. not using them to produce units or wonders. So I have merely just set up a decent infrastructure and then the game is over, as I wiped out the continent with the half a dozen or so units I had since ancient time. The whole point of the game seems to be then to provide tech and money to upgrade them.
 
The only thing that's really over the top is the spaceport district. Anything else is manageable, in fact, once your modern era economy rockets, you'll be wiser to rush buy power plants and RLabs because somehow it will take less time than actually building them
 
But my point is I seem to be building the IZ buildings for the sake of it, i.e. not using them to produce units or wonders. So I have merely just set up a decent infrastructure and then the game is over, as I wiped out the continent with the half a dozen or so units I had since ancient time. The whole point of the game seems to be then to provide tech and money to upgrade them.

Yeah man I can honestly tell the production lags behind science+culture very hard
And you feel it very quickly, as you keep on teching and barely have time to build what you teched for.
Cogs feel just ways out of pace with the rest, so all people feel obliged to build IZ in every city (which feels lame) just to be able to build anything at all after that
 
Worst thing that was radically different from BNW: districts, workers, settlers, spies, archaeologists, and trade routes have their production costs scaled up with era. Which actually makes me completely rehaul my opening game (I now delay getting that library up early game) simply because you will find your empire completely unable to do ANYTHING (even to get routes, workers, or districts up) if your science is too fast. A city settled late in the game will have to be developed by gold rather than hammers now.

The good thing is that wood and rainforest chop now scales too... and no longer suffer a penalty for being far away from your cities. Late game I have worker forces with 8 charges each halfway across the map amidst the tundra forests to generate production... which is basically the only realistic way late game wonders and SV stuff gets built in any satisfactory time. Teddy will get mad at me, but oh, what can I do? lol...
 
Actually settlers, builders, trade routes aren't affected by era...just how many you've already built.
(Possibly spies and archaeologists too, but I'm not sure)

The things that go up with techs (not era, # of techs)
Districts
Buying tiles w gold
Yield from chops/harvest
 
If you settle cities closely together to maximize industrial overlap you should have very good production. The denser you settle, the more overlap. If you have 7 industrial zones overlapping on your city (my tops so far, but up to 10 is theoretically possible), that's 49 cogs per turn which don't even require a citizen to work...

To get 49 cogs from working hexes you'd need what, 10 mines? That's 10 pop that need housing & amenities & food & hills...
 
Yeah the production scaling and such, I get why it is there, but it's a bit too gamey... in that you kinda have to game it.

You really can't emphasize science anything like in the past and the fact that it can bite you so hard while you're doing what seems like a good thing (science good...) and then make the game a lot of no fun seems like it needs some adjusting.
 
Yeah you really need to go all out to get late game production.

You need to send all your trade routes to the city in question and you need to hook up whatever civic you need to give 50% reduction in cost of units/wonders you are making. Even then you are probably looking at 10 turn build time in your best city.
 
In the late game you should have enough trade routes to make things pretty smooth. Also it's probably never a good play to build a unit without the +x% production bonus from civics.
 
Tbh building production up anywhere except capital and maybe some other civ's capital that you captured early never seem to do enough.
You basically waste production to make production... for what?
What you want from cities is to make
1) cash
2) science
3) faith (if you go religion route, especially with Theology to buy units for faith)

Everything else is irrelevant, really.
That alone takes up 3 districts, leaving 4th district for entertainment when your trash cities grow to almost max 12-13 (depends on terrain) and start having amenity problems.
Production problems are resolved with trade route back to your capital for +5 production (which is pretty much better than any industrial zone can net you unless ALL of your trash cities happen to be in productive spots. And it takes forever to get those industrial zones up)
So, yeah...
 
If you have 7 industrial zones overlapping on your city (my tops so far, but up to 10 is theoretically possible), that's 49 cogs per turn which don't even require a citizen to work...
If you focus fire you can go way above 10. In my recent game the spaceport city had 13 Industrial Zones within 6 tiles, 1 more hit it from 9 tiles away boosted by Great Engineer and in addition I must have miscalculated one as it turned out to be 7 tiles away when I could have placed it within range as well. In general you only need one super production city, the rest will be hit by slightly fewer IZs, but still enough for them to build anything but space parts very fast.
Tbh building production up anywhere except capital and maybe some other civ's capital that you captured early never seem to do enough.
You basically waste production to make production... for what?
What you want from cities is to make
1) cash
2) science
3) faith (if you go religion route, especially with Theology to buy units for faith)
Industrial Zones pay back way faster than anything else in the game. With a tight empire, even a moderately placed Industrial Zone should hit 5 additional cities with AOE buildings. Getting all of them up costs 175 (workshop) + 355 (factory) + 525 (powerplant) + whatever the Industrial Zone itself costs. Let's say it's placed in the mid game and costs 245 production for a total production cost of 1300 to get everything up. Assuming weak adjacency bonus of +1, the yields/turn are 1+2+6*3+6*4 = 45. The hammers invested are payed back in less than 30 turns. Hit 2 more cities and have a bit more adjacency bonus, payback time goes down to 21 turns. This doesn't take into account the additional GPP which might also be immensely valuable.

Let's compare to something else, like commercial hubs. Assume the commercial hub is placed instead of the Industrial zone for 245 production. Your trader gives +5 production. This takes 49 turns to pay back. Food yields and additional yields might change the equation to make it pay back faster, however, once the Industrial Zone has payed back the initial investment, it will very fast outperform the commercial hub at 45 production/turn. Don't even get me started on commercial hub buildings. For a direct comparison, we should look at the cost of buying them compared to their yields. Payback times for markets, banks and stock exchanges is 140, 212 and 203 turns respectively. Those buildings are absolutely horrible. The only thing that could make them even remotely worth considering (other than 2 banks for eureka) is the late game culture boosting Great Merchants in a cultural game.

I do agree that science is important. I usually place my campuses as early as possible. Calculating a value for science vs. production is quite hard. I've found the banks come at a time when I can spare production for a couple of markets and banks to save >700 science on banking and economics, in some other cases it's a more difficult equation.

I haven't looked into faith buying. What is the faith cost per production to buy units? If you build a holy site and all the buildings, how long does it take for that holy site to earn you the faith to buy the same production worth of units?

Everything above applies mainly to science victories, possibly to cultural victories as well. A domination victory doesn't need much of an economy at all.
 
If you focus fire you can go way above 10. In my recent game the spaceport city had 13 Industrial Zones within 6 tiles

ah yes, good point. 10 is only the maximum for a repeatable pattern. Like, with infinite space, ALL your cities could have 10. If you focus on 1 city then you can get more indeed.
 
If you focus fire you can go way above 10. In my recent game the spaceport city had 13 Industrial Zones within 6 tiles, 1 more hit it from 9 tiles away boosted by Great Engineer and in addition I must have miscalculated one as it turned out to be 7 tiles away when I could have placed it within range as well. In general you only need one super production city, the rest will be hit by slightly fewer IZs, but still enough for them to build anything but space parts very fast.

Industrial Zones pay back way faster than anything else in the game. With a tight empire, even a moderately placed Industrial Zone should hit 5 additional cities with AOE buildings. Getting all of them up costs 175 (workshop) + 355 (factory) + 525 (powerplant) + whatever the Industrial Zone itself costs. Let's say it's placed in the mid game and costs 245 production for a total production cost of 1300 to get everything up. Assuming weak adjacency bonus of +1, the yields/turn are 1+2+6*3+6*4 = 45. The hammers invested are payed back in less than 30 turns. Hit 2 more cities and have a bit more adjacency bonus, payback time goes down to 21 turns. This doesn't take into account the additional GPP which might also be immensely valuable.

Let's compare to something else, like commercial hubs. Assume the commercial hub is placed instead of the Industrial zone for 245 production. Your trader gives +5 production. This takes 49 turns to pay back. Food yields and additional yields might change the equation to make it pay back faster, however, once the Industrial Zone has payed back the initial investment, it will very fast outperform the commercial hub at 45 production/turn. Don't even get me started on commercial hub buildings. For a direct comparison, we should look at the cost of buying them compared to their yields. Payback times for markets, banks and stock exchanges is 140, 212 and 203 turns respectively. Those buildings are absolutely horrible. The only thing that could make them even remotely worth considering (other than 2 banks for eureka) is the late game culture boosting Great Merchants in a cultural game.

I do agree that science is important. I usually place my campuses as early as possible. Calculating a value for science vs. production is quite hard. I've found the banks come at a time when I can spare production for a couple of markets and banks to save >700 science on banking and economics, in some other cases it's a more difficult equation.

I haven't looked into faith buying. What is the faith cost per production to buy units? If you build a holy site and all the buildings, how long does it take for that holy site to earn you the faith to buy the same production worth of units?

Everything above applies mainly to science victories, possibly to cultural victories as well. A domination victory doesn't need much of an economy at all.

Well, considering the AOE bonuses, yes, it does make sense to put IZ on.

Faith buying is pure awesome, consider roughly 400 faith for a bombard or 1000 faith for modern infantry.
That's easily by the time I have around 2000-3000 faith accumulated with God of War, so as soon as I hit Renaissance I just slap 5 bombards in my temples and get them to join the fray.
Then they farm more God of War faith and this never stops.
It's basically like second cash source to rush-buy units - which also makes production kinda less relevant.
 
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