Leader Discussion - Charlemagne

[disjointaccount]

Late again but better than never! This time it's Charlemagne.
His leader ability is Father of Europe, which is a three-parter:

• Military and Science Buildings receive a Happiness adjacency for Quarters
• Gain 2 Cavalry units, once unlocked, when entering a Celebration
• +5 Combat Strength for Cavalry units during a Celebration

His attributes are Militaristic and Scientific, giving him access to the Military Aid and Research Collaboration endeavors, along with events for attribute points upon unlocking Discipline and Astronomy (per this post).
He has a starting bias for rivers.
Playing as Charlemagne unlocks Norman (otherwise unlocked by improving 3 Iron or having 5 tiles with ancient walls), Spain (otherwise unlocked by reconquering a lost settlement) and Bulgaria (otherwise unlocked by having 3 Altars) in the Exploration Age, and Prussia (otherwise unlocked by having 3 Army Commanders or improving 3 Nitre) and France (otherwise unlocked by improving 3 Wine) in the Modern Age.
As an AI leader, his agenda is The Golden Shepherd - Increase Relationship by Medium Amount with whichever player has triggered the most Celebrations. If there is a tie, Increase Relationship by Small Amount to tieholders. Decrease Relationship by a Medium Amount with whoever has triggered the fewest Celebrations. If there's a tie, Decrease Relationship by Small Amount to tieholders.

So what are everyone's thoughts? Likes/dislikes? Strengths and weaknesses? Fun strategies? Good civs to pair him with?

 

[Nic@Melbourne]

I enjoy him with Norman, great synergy.

 

[uppi]

The gameplan is simple, but fun: Party like there is no tomorrow and let drunken cavalry take over the world.

In Antiquity, he really wants to be Maurya. Not only for the elephants, but also for the traditions to convert all the excessive happiness into yields. Then the Normans in Exploration. There is an argument to be made for Mongols, but I think Normans is more fitting.

 

[disjointaccount]

Big fan of Charlemagne. Cavalry is the best class, so free cavalry is very welcome. Makes him a very strong military leader. Not to mention the other benefits that come with chaining celebrations and whatever else you can figure out to do with excess happiness. Not much more than that to his playstyle - simple, but effective.

For civs, really anyone with cavalry. As has been mentioned, Maurya is great for providing nice cav as well as giving him uses for his happiness, though for antiquity UUs I do prefer Khmer, and Carthage (for whom the free units are especially nice given that Numidian Cavalry are one of a great many expenses Carthage is always juggling). Norman and Bulgaria are the obvious explo civs, imo. Both solid options who synergise with Charlemagne in different ways and have good unique units to capitalise on his freebies.

 

[Leucarum]

He's really good... Very straightforward. Pick a civ with unique cavalry of a happiness bonus.... Profit. Scientific/millitary endeavours are a prrtty good combo too.

I just find him very bland and have only done the one game with him for the achievement. No reflection on his power level, just that he doesn't spark joy.

 

[MutilationWave]

He's really good... Very straightforward. Pick a civ with unique cavalry of a happiness bonus.... Profit. Scientific/millitary endeavours are a prrtty good combo too.

I just find him very bland and have only done the one game with him for the achievement. No reflection on his power level, just that he doesn't spark joy.

He sure sparked joy for me when I played him Rome into Mongols. 27 settlement limit at the end of exploration, almost the entire continent conquered. It's a shame he doesn't give free Keshigs.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

He sure sparked joy for me when I played him Rome into Mongols. 27 settlement limit at the end of exploration, almost the entire continent conquered. It's a shame he doesn't give free Keshigs.

Charlemagne is all about Military Conquest. You can play him for a nice, peaceful Cultural/Scientific/Trade/Religion game, but why bother? Beeline to The Wheel in Antiquity, never look back.

And in Exploration, playing as either Normans or Mongols. it's Horde Time: keep piling up Celebrations and unleashing Inflictacide on all your neighbors. I don't think in the 2 - 3 times I played Charlemagne I ever reached the end of Exploration with more than half the AI civs surviving: Knights backed up by Keshik archery or Chevalers backed up by crossbows, it comes to the same thing: flatten everything in front of you.

But always leave a couple of victims neighbors to be overrun with Tank Armies in Modern.

I don't play him anymore, both because he's something of a One Note Leader, but also because it's a little too easy to crush the AI opposition with that one loud, long Note.

 

[Lord Lakely]

Even if you play him pacifist, it should be noted that he gets an absurd amount of happiness. Military and Science buildings are two of the highest priority buildings, and you always place them in Cities, which results in a loop of Celebrations into Cavalry.

I would recommend starting as Maurya because the Matha's bonus Happiness stacks with his abilities nicely, he gets free elephants from celebrations and then also gets traditions that buff his Science.

From there, Normans or Bulgarians to hopefully end up in Mexico (and failing that, France or Prussia) for even more happiness into celebrations into cavalry engine.

And on top of all of that, he's also Scientific, meaning he can get early Research Collaborations and Science Attribute points.

Really good leader. Not my favourite to play, and not the strongest for my builder agenda, but he's consistent at getting the job done. He's as strong as Ashoka is at peace, and more prone to snowballing when at war.

 

[tedhebert]

He sure sparked joy for me when I played him Rome into Mongols. 27 settlement limit at the end of exploration, almost the entire continent conquered. It's a shame he doesn't give free Keshigs.

27 settlement LIMIT at the end of explo ? How the hey can you achieve that ?

 

[Lord Lakely]

27 settlement LIMIT at the end of explo ? How the hey can you achieve that ?

With Egypt into Abbasids i was able to get around 20, so I can definitely imagine that rome + mongolia can push it as high as 27. You'd have to grab every tech and civic that gives Settlement limit + the militaristic legacy that gives +2 Settlement limit + be the Suzerain of a Militaristic City State in both ages, but I believe it can be done.

 

[Siptah]

+ be the Suzerain of a Militaristic City State in both ages

I don't think the bonus from Antiquity survives the era transition. Like bonuses from unique civics, it gets nullified for the new era.

That said, I think Charlemagne is really strong, and it was also really fun to play him once. Yet, he's not a high priority for a replay for me, as I would just do the same thing again, mostly.

 

[UWHabs]

I did Charlie as Carthage->Norman, and yeah, you get so many cavalry that you don't know what to do with them. Also since the happiness bonuses are adjacency, exploration age tile yields are super easy too, and can easily negate being way over the settlement cap.

 

[Arcaian]

I don't think the bonus from Antiquity survives the era transition. Like bonuses from unique civics, it gets nullified for the new era.

That said, I think Charlemagne is really strong, and it was also really fun to play him once. Yet, he's not a high priority for a replay for me, as I would just do the same thing again, mostly.

Isn't your settlement limit going into a new age always equal to your old settlement limit, so long as it's higher than the default for the next age?

 

[MutilationWave]

I swear I started Modern with 27, it's been a while but I don't think I'm misremembering.

 

[MutilationWave]

Isn't your settlement limit going into a new age always equal to your old settlement limit, so long as it's higher than the default for the next age?

That's my understanding but I think they're saying the bonus from military civic states specifically doesn't carry over.

EDIT- on reread actually I'm not sure I'm right about the meaning. @Siptah I'm certain that the settlement limit from unique civics carries over as long as you are over the minimum for the next age.

 

[Siptah]

That's my understanding but I think they're saying the bonus from military civic states specifically doesn't carry over.

EDIT- on reread actually I'm not sure I'm right about the meaning. @Siptah I'm certain that the settlement limit from unique civics carries over as long as you are over the minimum for the next age.

It does? Huh, I seemed to misremember then. But for the city states, I'm still wondering. I mean, all the other bonuses just vanish, right? (But then again, the same is true for all other civic bonuses).

 

[Krikkit1]

I don't think the bonus from Antiquity survives the era transition. Like bonuses from unique civics, it gets nullified for the new era.

That said, I think Charlemagne is really strong, and it was also really fun to play him once. Yet, he's not a high priority for a replay for me, as I would just do the same thing again, mostly.

Settlement boosts do survive the transition, they Even count Twice (Xerxes gets an extra +6 by Modern. not +3 because the bonuses carry over and then get duplicated)…which is badly broken.

(Essentially the code is setup so if you are above the base for the age your current becomes the new base…it’s like overbuilding giving you the full effects of both buildings)

 

[uppi]

Settlement boosts do survive the transition, they Even count Twice (Xerxes gets an extra +6 by Modern. not +3 because the bonuses carry over and then get duplicated)…which is badly broken.

(Essentially the code is setup so if you are above the base for the age your current becomes the new base…it’s like overbuilding giving you the full effects of both buildings)

They do not carry over in all cases. Only those that push you over the minimum initial settlement limit for the next age. So if Xerxes ends up with 8 settlement limit at the end of Antiquity, his bonus will not carry over, so he will just get +2 in Exploration. So if you are pushing settlement limit, make sure you research all the civics that give you settlement limit before the age ends to get maximum carry over.

That said, Charlemagne is one of the leaders with which you might not want to push settlement limit. Especially if you go Maurya -> Normans with Charlemagne, you will have so much happiness that you can just tank the -35 happiness penalty and still have enough to be constantly celebrating. And then conquer as many settlements as you want. Settlement limit is just a number! And then use the bonuses you would have spent on settlement limit for more useful stuff.