[R&F] Legacy policy cards

[criZp]

I don't see a problem with using a legacy card while you are still in a government. In theory, you might become a Classical Republic in Ancient Times and remain one through the Classical and Medieval periods, perhaps well into the Renaissance. Your nation clearly has a legacy, it's just one that you've never abandoned, which to me makes it all the more legitimate.

But you already get the government bonus for being in the government. The problem with double legacy is that for example double oligarchy is too strong.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

But you already get the government bonus for being in the government. The problem with double legacy is that for example double oligarchy is too strong.

I see it as strong too, but it's the least talked about so far in this thread which is strange.

Great general + double oligarchy affords a unit enough power to 2-shot itself. Generic swordsman fights and hit cites at the level of a knight w/o GG/oligarchy. A crossbowman w/ 2 shots could kill a knight every single turn by itself, etc.

Maybe others aren't weighting this highly because they're beating AI w/o it by letting it suicide --> use XP advantage and focusing on more builder aspect, but stacking military modifiers like promotions with these extra fixed boosts is devastating.

 

[EditorRex]

But you already get the government bonus for being in the government. The problem with double legacy is that for example double oligarchy is too strong.

I disagree. Yes, it's an extra bonus that's available. But there's a tradeoff. There's always some other very good card that you can't use because you are using that one. And sometimes this means you don't take advantage of the legacy card being available. In one recent game, I found that I needed to go for extended period without using my early legacy card because of other cards that were essential to my strategy at that point in the game.

Personally, I think there's a certain lameness to government type only defining the types of cards (including wildcards) that you can use and not which ones you use. You can have a Democratic government and adopt militaristic and anti-democratic policies from other trees as long as you find places for them in your government. It seems like certain policies should be nerfed or simply unavailable if you've chosen the opposite government type. We've come a long ways from the days in Civ when the Senate nixed your warmongering in a Democratic government, and I'm not convinced it's for the better.

 

[Archon_Wing]

I would have changed Oligarchic Legacy to give extra experience, not combat strength.

 

[UWHabs]

I disagree. Yes, it's an extra bonus that's available. But there's a tradeoff. There's always some other very good card that you can't use because you are using that one. And sometimes this means you don't take advantage of the legacy card being available. In one recent game, I found that I needed to go for extended period without using my early legacy card because of other cards that were essential to my strategy at that point in the game.

Personally, I think there's a certain lameness to government type only defining the types of cards (including wildcards) that you can use and not which ones you use. You can have a Democratic government and adopt militaristic and anti-democratic policies from other trees as long as you find places for them in your government. It seems like certain policies should be nerfed or simply unavailable if you've chosen the opposite government type. We've come a long ways from the days in Civ when the Senate nixed your warmongering in a Democratic government, and I'm not convinced it's for the better.

I do think part of the problem is that since you can use any cards in the wildcard slot, that makes it too easy. I mean, I can run democracy knowing that I can still use up to 4 military cards. I don't think I could ever want to run more than that, so seriously, why would I even think of running the other government types? I think a change for the better would be to not let you run any cards in the wildcard slots, but save those for the legacy cards, the great people cards, and the dark age cards. I'd potentially move a few cards from the other ones to be new wildcards, and would certainly beef up the current great people cards. But if you do that, then there's a real legit reason to choose different governments. Since for me, I will often want to run 2 military cards for a time (maybe need the upgrade card, and want the +movement, for example), so if democracy literally let me run only 1 military card, I'd think twice about whether it made sense for me.

 

[EditorRex]

This goes to why I still most prefer the government system in Civ IV, in which each aspect of government and you selected one policy each from different trees. If you wanted to be a Theocratic constitutional monarchy with a caste system and a mercantile economy, you could do that. If you wanted to be a Free market bureaucratic police state with freedom of religion and a serf labor force, you could do that. This seemed satisfying to as a game-play element, close to the way the world actually works and not overly complex. I wonder whether the card system as it currently exists meets any of those standards.

 

[NukeAJS]

Oligarchic Legacy is too strong. The Republican and Autocratic cards are strong, but not silly. Oligarchic Legacy while in Oligarchy is just silly sometimes. You can go on a hoplites or saka horse archer massacre. Hoplite massacre works particularly well because of Pericle's extra wild card slot. A level 1 hoplite is +18 total against everything (assuming you know how to march your hoplites in formation). And they're +28 against melee at level 2 -- which is super easy to get because more exp.

Technically anything is too powerful in the early game with the combo, but ancient and classical UUs particularly shine.

Whoever said it should only give extra exp -- yes.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

Oligarchic Legacy is too strong. The Republican and Autocratic cards are strong, but not silly. Oligarchic Legacy while in Oligarchy is just silly sometimes. You can go on a hoplites or saka horse archer massacre. Hoplite massacre works particularly well because of Pericle's extra wild card slot. A level 1 hoplite is +18 total against everything (assuming you know how to march your hoplites in formation). And they're +28 against melee at level 2 -- which is super easy to get because more exp.

Technically anything is too powerful in the early game with the combo, but ancient and classical UUs particularly shine.

Whoever said it should only give extra exp -- yes.

When playing at Deity, the Oligarchic Legacy Card offsets the AI's inherent bonus, so basically it's an "I'd like to play Deity but don't give the AI a combat bonus" card. Sure, it only boosts melee and anti-cav, but boosting melee's enough.

I'd argue, though, that the Republican Legacy Card is extremely powerful in it's own right. It's a free Amenity in every city card that never expires, and there's a lot you can do with those extra amenities, either reaping the production bonuses or selling excess luxuries.

The Autocratic Legacy Card, on the other hand, is to my mind too weak. At it's max, it gives +4 Food, +4 Production, +4 Science, +4 Culture, +4 Faith, and +4 Gold. Early on, when that might be tempting, it's half the above amounts.

Personally, I'd be inclined to switch:

• the Autocratic bonus back to wonder production, which is okayish and situational, although I'd make it +15% or even +20% rather than the +10% the government gives, since you're unlikely to be producing wonders in more than one or two cities at a time.
• I agree with the prior suggestions that the Oligarchic bonus should be the +20% unit experience.
• for Republican, I'd flip it to the Great Person bonus, but not at the +15% level, which to me is too high. +5% would be more reasonable for something that applies empire-wide to all great person types.

 

[BarbarianHunter]

I'd argue, though, that the Republican Legacy Card is extremely powerful in it's own right. It's a free Amenity in every city card that never expires, and there's a lot you can do with those extra amenities, either reaping the production bonuses or selling excess luxuries.

I think in single player games the Republican Legacy card is the best, as offsetting the AI's combat bonuses is not of particular relevance to me past the opening 50 turns or so.
+1 amenities per city on the other hand!

In multiplayer, I could see an Oligarchy govt. employing the Oligarchic Legacy card being quite advantageous, and the Republican Legacy card's value to be somewhere between quaint and useless.

The Autocratic Legacy Card, on the other hand, is to my mind too weak. At it's max, it gives +4 Food, +4 Production, +4 Science, +4 Culture, +4 Faith, and +4 Gold. Early on, when that might be tempting, it's half the above amounts.

I agree with your assessment of the Autocratic Legacy card. Complete rubbish in both single and multiplayer.

Personally, I'd be inclined to switch:

• the Autocratic bonus back to wonder production, which is okayish and situational, although I'd make it +15% or even +20% rather than the +10% the government gives, since you're unlikely to be producing wonders in more than one or two cities at a time.
• I agree with the prior suggestions that the Oligarchic bonus should be the +20% unit experience.
• for Republican, I'd flip it to the Great Person bonus, but not at the +15% level, which to me is too high. +5% would be more reasonable for something that applies empire-wide to all great person types.

I like these ideas, except would leave the Republican Legacy card as it stands presently.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

I like these ideas, except would leave the Republican Legacy card as it stands presently.

Fair enough, but as you point out, the Republican Legacy card currently may be quite underpowered in multi-player, whereas a boost to Great Person may be more applicable to both SP and MP.

I'm speculating, though, as I don't play multi-player.

 

[acluewithout]

Early Legacy Cards, Tier 1 Government Buildings and Tier 1 Governments all need a tweak.

I’d like to see:

- Government Plaza pushes back to Diplomatic Service. The first building is now a High Court. The High Court would not unlock a Legacy Card. Instead, it would increase how many tiles loyalty extends from your Capital.

- The old Tier 1 Government Plaza buildings are now mutually exclusive City Centre buildings, that can only be built in your capital, and unlock at Political Philosophy. Let’s call them Early Government Buildings.

- Early Government Buildings would unlock a Tier 1 Government Legacy Card, just like they did when they were in the Plaza.

- Early Government Buildings would also provide their own Legacy Card based on Tradition, Honour and Liberty. These cards would replace the bonuses these buildings currently provide.

Okay, with me so far? So, if you made all those changes, then I’d revamp Oligarchy etc. like this.

- Warlords throne provides an Honour Legacy Card, and it’s this card that has the +4 combat bonus.

- Oligarchy now has the Warlord’s throne previous production bonus and increased unit experience. The Oligarchy Legacy Card is the experience bonus.

- Republic’s bonuses are flipped like @Trav'ling Canuck suggests.

- While we’re at it, make Monarch’s Legacy Bonus instead just a Military Card anyone can slot (to make walls more useful generally), and give Monarchy some other bonus, eg walls provide +2 food per level or +1 builder charges.

 

[UWHabs]

FYI, in my current game, due to stuff, I delayed building my government district for a long time. So long, in fact, that I actually was already into my T2 government by the time I finished the T1 building. It unlocked the T1 legacy card for the last t1 government I was in, so that was interesting to confirm.

But would agree overall as well that the legacy cards in many cases are meh. Republic and Oligarchy are both great - although Oligarchy also depends on how your army is built. If you're not actually using a lot of melee troops, then it doesn't help a lot. So yeah, if you're going on a spree as Rome or Greece, it's a no-brainer. But if your army is all mounted troops, then it doesn't help you.

The T2 legacy cards are even worse. I mean, maybe they're better than I think, but always hard to judge the whole ".5 faith per citizen in a city with a governor". Although I'm pretty sure that's still better than the gold bonus from Merchant Republic.

 

[BarbarianHunter]

Early Legacy Cards, Tier 1 Government Buildings and Tier 1 Governments all need a tweak.

- Early Government Buildings would also provide their own Legacy Card based on Tradition, Honour and Liberty. These cards would replace the bonuses these buildings currently provide.

I think you're on to something here. Give the Legacy cards different bonuses based on what T1 govt. building you choose.
EDITED: T2, T3 buildings could also net you different Legacy bonuses.

 

[acluewithout]

Really, I’d just like to see a few more Legacy Cards. It’s an interesting mechanic but a bit underused at the moment (given you only get three). Having a few more would also maybe be a good compromise who like the flexibility of the current policy card system - which lets a communist government run say e commerce (although in fairness said communist government does need to unlock the e commerce policy...) and those that would like policy options limited to certain government types. Legacy cards are also a good bridge between Civ 5’s restrictive social policies and the flexibility for Civ VI policy systems.

To be clear, I really like how Government and Policy cards work now. I just think FXS need to lean into it a bit more, and join things up a little more, rather than pulling in more disconnected and random mechanics. So, I’m happy to keep Legacy Cards (for example), but a bit more depth please.

 

[EditorRex]

I suspect that we will see these cards tweaked in an upcoming patch. But in the mean time, an observation about Autocracy: Those bonuses mean more early. If you are in a position to capitalize on them early, in some game situations they can be more meaningful in giving you a boost that will last long after you stop using that card. If you are playing for an early win (Domination for instance) and the map supports it, you can ride those Autocracy bonuses more effectively to a win than the Oligarchy or Republic cards. This is not how I generally play, but I think you have to keep your eyes open for situations.

 

[sixty4half]

I suspect that we will see these cards tweaked in an upcoming patch. But in the mean time, an observation about Autocracy: Those bonuses mean more early.

Not in the current combat system. Your unit's power doesn't mean anything linearly, it only matters in comparison to the power of the unit it's fighting. So, being 4 points higher than your opponent will always yield the same % of damage, whether it's a base 36 power swordsman vs a 40 power swordsman or a base 55 power musketman vs a 59 power musketman. Double it since we're talking about stacking and that's +8 power. That's a pretty big difference if all other things are equal.

The thing is, I don't think it's OP. It's almost a waste of a slot if you ask me. From a single player stand point anyways, I don't play MP. The reason I say that is that it's just too easy to stack bonus' against the AI. You can get a GG, flanking, terrain bonus, Autocracy, 1st player priority, and an AI that stumbles over it's own units. And that's only in Unit combat. In city combat you can use seige towers and battering rams. GG AI

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

Not in the current combat system. Your unit's power doesn't mean anything linearly, it only matters in comparison to the power of the unit it's fighting. So, being 4 points higher than your opponent will always yield the same % of damage, whether it's a base 36 power swordsman vs a 40 power swordsman or a base 55 power musketman vs a 59 power musketman. Double it since we're talking about stacking and that's +8 power. That's a pretty big difference if all other things are equal.

The thing is, I don't think it's OP. It's almost a waste of a slot if you ask me. From a single player stand point anyways, I don't play MP. The reason I say that is that it's just too easy to stack bonus' against the AI. You can get a GG, flanking, terrain bonus, Autocracy, 1st player priority, and an AI that stumbles over it's own units. And that's only in Unit combat. In city combat you can use seige towers and battering rams. GG AI

Yes, the Autocracy Legacy card provides just as much bonus to your Mechanized Infantry as it does to your Swordsmen.

It's just that, playing single player once you become familiar with the game, the if the AI is any threat at all, it's in the early stage of the game.

 

[EditorRex]

Yes, the Autocracy Legacy card provides just as much bonus to your Mechanized Infantry as it does to your Swordsmen.

It's just that, playing single player once you become familiar with the game, the if the AI is any threat at all, it's in the early stage of the game.

This is somewhat true depending on your play style and the map. But I'm thinking more about the advantage to your Muskets and Infantry anyway. We have mismatch between Techs and Civics in this game that I hope they will fix in the next expansion. In most games, I am tech'ing far ahead of picking up Civics that seem relevant to my technology in terms of card or government type benefits, though the opposite is true with the research bonuses on the Civics tree that rely on technologies. Despite all this, in a reasonable game, not necessarily a high efficiency one where I'm micromanaging my population every turn, I might expect to launch a game-ending onslaught with a military made up of early-modern technology and rely on those bonus cards for a boost.

Frankly, there are a ton of the cards that I have never used and don't see why I would ever use. Some of those are related to religious victories, which I tend not to pursue. But others supposedly give bonuses to things like production, military production, science, culture, gold, etc., and I won't use them because there's always some vastly superior choice.