Lest We Forget- Anzac Day

[Zardnaar]

April 25th here in New Zealand as its after midnight.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anzac_Day

In 1915 the Australian and New Zealand Army Corp landed at Gallipoli in Turkey in WW1.

And the battle itself

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gallipoli

 

[EnlightenmentHK]

Always found it to be a rather odd holiday. The only countries I know of who celebrate a defeat as a national holiday. But I guess I can see it from the forging of an independent national identity perspective. In either case, happy Anzac day I guess.

 

[Zardnaar]

Always found it to be a rather odd holiday. The only countries I know of who celebrate a defeat as a national holiday. But I guess I can see it from the forging of an independent national identity perspective. In either case, happy Anzac day I guess.

Its not a happy day but a day of remembrance. A day off work makes me happy though.

 

[Dame Edna]

I have become increasingly frustrated in recent years with the mythology that has grown up (in Australia) around the Gallipoli landings. Whilst I acknowledge the importance of the landings at Gallipoli on 25 April 1915 - first military campaign of the newly federated Australian Commonwealth (in conjunction with our Kiwi cousins) establishing our place in the world etc - what frustrates me is the almost religious significance that has been attached to an event that doesn't warrant it - and before people accuse me of denigrating the memory of those that fell at Gallipoli let me hasten to add that is not my intent.

My main frustration is that the concentration on Gallipoli has taken attention away from other more significant achievements such as Australia's, New Zealand's and Canada's central role in defeating the German's on the Western Front in France in WW1. Another event that doesn't get the attention it deserves are the achievements of the Australians in what is arguably one of the the most outstanding fighting retreats in military history along the Kokoda Track in Papua New Guinea in WW2. This campaign, more than any other in Australian history is deserving of more attention because it occurred when the Allies had known mainly defeat in the war against Japan and because of the horrendous conditions under which a vastly out numbered and out gunned group of Australians fought a fierce withdrawl (the hardest maneuver in war) against the Japanese down the length and breadth of the Kokoda Track - how many Australians recognise the names of Isurava, Mission Ridge, Imita Ridge, Buna and Gona? Not that many I'll bet, and yet the story of what the young Aussies did there was far more important to the security of the nation than Gallipoli.

Lest we forget.

 

[Zardnaar]

I have become increasingly frustrated in recent years with the mythology that has grown up (in Australia) around the Gallipoli landings. Whilst I acknowledge the importance of the landings at Gallipoli on 25 April 1915 - first military campaign of the newly federated Australian Commonwealth (in conjunction with our Kiwi cousins) establishing our place in the world etc - what frustrates me is the almost religious significance that has been attached to an event that doesn't warrant it - and before people accuse me of denigrating the memory of those that fell at Gallipoli let me hasten to add that is not my intent.

My main frustration is that the concentration on Gallipoli has taken attention away from other more significant achievements such as Australia's, New Zealand's and Canada's central role in defeating the German's on the Western Front in France in WW1. Another event that doesn't get the attention it deserves are the achievements of the Australians in what is arguably one of the the most outstanding fighting retreats in military history along the Kokoda Track in Papua New Guinea in WW2. This campaign, more than any other in Australian history is deserving of more attention because it occurred when the Allies had known mainly defeat in the war against Japan and because of the horrendous conditions under which a vastly out numbered and out gunned group of Australians fought a fierce withdrawl (the hardest maneuver in war) against the Japanese down the length and breadth of the Kokoda Track - how many Australians recognise the names of Isurava, Mission Ridge, Imita Ridge, Buna and Gona? Not that many I'll bet, and yet the story of what the young Aussies did there was far more important to the security of the nation than Gallipoli.

Lest we forget.

Similar opinion here. What is also overlooked methinks is that we were invading another country as well that we really had no dispute with. The Turks have been fantastic in terms of welcoming Aussies and Kiwis at Gallipoli and in preserving and maintaining the site.

 

[Dame Edna]

Similar opinion here. What is also overlooked methinks is that we were invading another country as well that we really had no dispute with. The Turks have been fantastic in terms of welcoming Aussies and Kiwis at Gallipoli and in preserving and maintaining the site.

Yes I agree, although after hearing reports from friends of mine that have been to the Dawn Service at ANZAC Cove I am concerned at the behaviour of some Aussies and Kiwi, and that the hospitality and comradeship of the Turks will be severely tested. My friends told me that whilst most of the Antipodean visitors were well behaved there was a small minority that acted as though it was an excuse to drink piss and party - perhaps they were keeping the traditions of the original larrikin Diggers alive. Regardless, the concentration on Gallipoli is unhealthy.

 

[Tee Kay]

Lest we forget.

 

[Rik Meleet]

I was in highschool in Australia in 1991. It was there that I ever learned of "Gallipolli" and then as center piece of WWI. Since then I had a look around in the world and Australia is only one of a few countries that consider Gallipoli "very important". It seemed that "World War I" and "Gallipoli" were synonyms. Which was a bit strange for my ears, since I had never heard of "Gallipoli" in Europe. In Australia the attention Gallipoli received is of course understandable, as it was important to them - but on a wide spectrum it isn't that important history-wise.
The most important element might be the career-boost that Mustafa Kemal Atatürk got from it. Still - in the Dutch languaged wiki page on him, the word "Gallipoli" isn't even there. And in other language-wiki's (like Italian, Norwegian, Greek, and Turkish ) "Gallipoli" isn't mentioned in Mustafa Kemal Atatürk's wiki either, while in some other language-wiki's it is.

So: enjoy your Anzac-Day, but don't consider Gallipoli too important.

 

[Zardnaar]

I was in highschool in Australia in 1991. It was there that I ever learned of "Gallipolli" and then as center piece of WWI. Since then I had a look around in the world and Australia is only one of a few countries that consider Gallipoli "very important". It seemed that "World War I" and "Gallipoli" were synonyms. Which was a bit strange for my ears, since I had never heard of "Gallipoli" in Europe. In Australia the attention Gallipoli received is of course understandable, as it was important to them - but on a wide spectrum it isn't that important history-wise.
The most important element might be the career-boost that Mustafa Kemal Atatürk got from it. Still - in the Dutch languaged wiki page on him, the word "Gallipoli" isn't even there. And in other language-wiki's (like Italian, Norwegian, Greek, and Turkish ) "Gallipoli" isn't mentioned in Mustafa Kemal Atatürk's wiki either, while in some other language-wiki's it is.

So: enjoy your Anzac-Day, but don't consider Gallipoli too important.

In the grand scheme of things its not important. In both WW1 and WW2 Australia and New Zealand suffered some of the heaviest casualties per capita out of all the nations ion the world. NZ mobilised something like 60000 soldiers in total from a population of 1 million.

And then theres stories like Gallipoli or Tobruk or Monte Casino in WW2. ANZACS didn't really rout and fought like bastards in both wars. Didn't have the equipment equal to some of the other nations but with a bit of nationalism one could argue ANZACS where some of the best infantry in both wars. The only double victoria cross ever awarded to an infantry man was an ANZAC (New Zealander actually). The other 2 double VCs were to staff officers IIRC. Aussie desert rats in Tobruk,and the Kokoda Trail also come to mind.

 

[Dame Edna]

I was in highschool in Australia in 1991. It was there that I ever learned of "Gallipolli" and then as center piece of WWI. Since then I had a look around in the world and Australia is only one of a few countries that consider Gallipoli "very important". It seemed that "World War I" and "Gallipoli" were synonyms. Which was a bit strange for my ears, since I had never heard of "Gallipoli" in Europe. In Australia the attention Gallipoli received is of course understandable, as it was important to them - but on a wide spectrum it isn't that important history-wise.
The most important element might be the career-boost that Mustafa Kemal Atatürk got from it. Still - in the Dutch languaged wiki page on him, the word "Gallipoli" isn't even there. And in other language-wiki's (like Italian, Norwegian, Greek, and Turkish ) "Gallipoli" isn't mentioned in Mustafa Kemal Atatürk's wiki either, while in some other language-wiki's it is.

So: enjoy your Anzac-Day, but don't consider Gallipoli too important.

What is and isn't important in history depends on your perspective - there is no definitive way to establish what is important in history, and what is on Wiki depends on someone having sufficient interest in the topic to post there, so it is hardly suprising that other language versions of Wiki don't mention Gallipoli. My point was not whether the rest of the world considered Gallipoli important but the over emphasis Australians place on it in their own history - what is important historically to Australians and New Zealanders need have no importance to the rest of the world as long as it is relevant to themselves.

 

[Zardnaar]

What is and isn't important in history depends on your persective - there is no definitive way to establish what is important in history, and what is on Wiki depends on someone having sufficient interest in the topic to post there, so it is hardly suprising that other language versions of Wiki don't mention Gallipoli. My point was not whether the rest of the world considered Gallipoli important but the over emphasis Australians place on it in their own history - what is important historically to Australians and New Zealanders need have no importance to the rest of the world as long as it is relevant to themselves.

Look at it this way. Australia and New Zealand didn't surrender unlike say the Netherlands for example

 

[sydhe]

Always found it to be a rather odd holiday. The only countries I know of who celebrate a defeat as a national holiday. But I guess I can see it from the forging of an independent national identity perspective. In either case, happy Anzac day I guess.

Well, Israel has one commemorating the destruction of the Temple. I'm surprised Serbia doesn't have one for the battle of Kosovo.

Some southern states in the US have holidays commemorating civil war personages.

 

[Pannonius]

You should also remember who your allies were in 1915.

 

[Zardnaar]

You should also remember who your allies were in 1915.

Yeah cos sending our men off to fight in what was essentially a European war was such a great idea

If WW1 happened in 2015 instead of 1915 I doubt we would mobilise again to that lvel if at all. Sort your own rubbish out.

 

[Sharwood]

ANZAC Day is odd in many ways. It's managed to become an important historical date in both Anzac and Turkish history for different reasons. Over here because it was the first time that both countries were really allowed their own national armed forces in British campaigns, even if many of the officers were British. Contributing to this was the fact that those same British officers lost the campaign through their own stupidity. It's a little known fact that the Turks had to conduct a forced march to arrive at ANZAC Cove, only to find the Australians occupying the beach, when there were perfectly defensible highlands all around. Kemal must have been licking his lips a laughing at us.

In Turkey it's important because they were defending their home soil from a foreign invasion. It also provided Mustafa Kemal with a huge prestige boost, as he was the valiant war hero who successfully defended his homeland from foreigners.

It's also very strange in that there never was, and has never been, any animousity between the two sides. The Turks have always recognised that we were just following orders in a larger war, and didn't really want to be there, while we have always recognised that they were just defending themselves, and meant us no real harm. A very interesting situation.

 

[Shekwan]

Yeah cos sending our men off to fight in what was essentially a European war was such a great idea

If WW1 happened in 2015 instead of 1915 I doubt we would mobilise again to that lvel if at all. Sort your own rubbish out.

Sort you own rubbish out huh... I recall Australia sorting out rubbish in Iraq not too long ago.Get used to globalisation my friend, your problem is my problem.

 

[Quildavyr]

And in other language-wiki's (like Italian, Norwegian, Greek, and Turkish ) "Gallipoli" isn't mentioned in Mustafa Kemal Atatürk's wiki either, while in some other language-wiki's it is.

So: enjoy your Anzac-Day, but don't consider Gallipoli too important.

It is not Gallipoli (gelibolu) That is why you cant find it in turkish wiki.
Here is the link:
gallipoli

 

[privatehudson]

The other 2 double VCs were to staff officers IIRC

The other two were both members of the Royal Army Medical Corps. Captain Arthur Martin-Leake won one during the Boer war in 1902 and one in WW1 in 1914. Captain Noel Chavasse won both of his during the first world war whilst serving as a medical officer attached to the 10th (Liverpool Scottish) Batallion, the Kings (Liverpool) Regiment. Chavasse's second award was made posthumously.

Interestingly Upham (the New Zealand combat soldier you refer to) and Chavasse were distantly related by marriage, and Chavasse was brought back to a casualty clearing station by Martin-Leake's field ambulance unit before dying there of his wounds.

I'm particularly interested in Chavasse as although he was born in Oxford he spent a lot of time in Liverpool (his father was the Bishop of Liverpool), and as I mentioned earlier served with one of our units in the trenches. Apparently he has more war memorials dedicated to him in the UK than any other individual, but bizarrely none in Liverpool. There's a campaign going at the moment to fund a statue to him.

 

[Sharwood]

Sort you own rubbish out huh... I recall Australia sorting out rubbish in Iraq not too long ago.Get used to globalisation my friend, your problem is my problem.

Not quite. America's problem is Australia's problem. We are their little Pacific b*tch, after all. I believe that's one of John Howard's titles, actually.

 

[Shekwan]

Yeah thats what I meant with the next sentence