Limit Military Size

[Fake Gustave]

In Civ 4 maybe they could include an option in game rules to limit the size of your (and AI's) military by the number of pop points you have.

For example if your civ has 29 pop points in total you can only build 29 military units until you gain another pop point or one military unit dies. Independent, captured, workers and settler units do not count, I don’t know what would happen if you lose a pop point at your limit(build settler or starvation or lose a city) maybe you just wait until you are under the new limit to build more military. I don’t think newly captured cities should add to your pop count limit straight away(unless it was originally yours). Think about it, 5 cites waiting to build tanks, take over a pop 5 city and BANG. You get 5 tanks instantaneously. This would have serious implications on balance of power.

This would place more strategy and value on single military units as oppose to just using the "sea of people" tactic. This would probably be a short game mode too. It would be best to have fewer garrisons and more attacking type units on patrols around your borders. In which case you have to respond to enemy attacks by intercepting them before they reach one of your towns. Maybe some sort of advance detection system can be implemented to help this(scouts, radar, increased vision, watch towers).

I am not sure if civs 3 combat system can support this, you know, tanks die to the occasional Musketman thing, but maybe civs 4 combat will be changed anyway.

Pity the AI may have trouble adapting to this new concept but I am sure Friaxis will think of something. After all one of my uni lecturers said "the only limit in programming is your imagination"

 

[The Last Conformist]

Turing established some pretty definite limits for what computer programming can achieve half a century ago ...

Sounds like decent idea, but realistically, demographics have usually been secondary to economics when determining fieldable army sizes. And it ought depend on the "real" population number rather than the number of pop points, I guess.

Another way to achieve something similar is simply to make military units cost population points.

 

[searcheagle]

I am opposed to any limits on military strength.

 

[Denarr]

My size 3 city has 72,000 people in it.
I would think that it could build more than one unit from it's population.

 

[Vizurok]

My size 3 city has 72,000 people in it.
I would think that it could build more than one unit from it's population.

But one unit is not one man...

@Gustave: I like your base idea, but I'd like to see it in a different way:
You get some points in every turn from your cities. For example, if you have 9 cities (let's use 3 cities --> 1 point ratio) you would get 3 points, so you could build three units (this idea is origins form the great strategy game EU). The ratio would depend various things, such as city sizes, age, advances, government.

 

[Fake Gustave]

Thank you Vizurok.

I only choose pop points as a limiting factor as it would greatly reduce military size but what ever the rest of you can think of would be nice to hear as well.

Remember people I proposed this as an option in the game rules, a different game mode, like regicide. Not something that was going to be coded indefinitely throughout the whole game. This reduces the problem of stacking, using 50 tanks to take on 30 mech infantry takes quite some time. Which some people have a problem with.

No more “I wouldn’t like my military reduced” plz

We all want stronger military but this will make it easier to manage

 

[Fake Gustave]

@ The Last Conformist

I know what you mean. How many countries have 50% in military and the rest in other services.
Maybe it could be a percentage of population, and that percentage could vary per government.

Military units costing pop points isn’t really a limiting factor though, just an increase in cost. You could still have 200+ units on a map if towns grow fast.

 

[dylanhatesyou]

@ The Last Conformist

I know what you mean. How many countries have 50% in military and the rest in other services.
Maybe it could be a percentage of population, and that percentage could vary per government.

Military units costing pop points isn’t really a limiting factor though, just an increase in cost. You could still have 200+ units on a map if towns grow fast.

How about the USA?

 

[Rammstein]

I could go for this idea as an option, like a twist if you want to give yourself a challenge. It would also be very interesting to see the changes in expansion strategy - to get as big an army as possible, you'd have to stretch yourself to the limit. But it would also create new strategies, I think - just imagine when you meet a civ twice as large as yourself... how would you deal with it in war?

But, as I said, it should be an option, not a default.

 

[erickcid]

As a game option possibility I like it. Thinking within the present civ 3 system I would conceive of this as a fractional population adjustment that would create a turn "penalty" for population growth as new units are built... still thinking. I suppose a game mode where every military unit cost one population point just like a worker would be interesting, and certainly radically change warfare in the game. As a possible game mode, I like that idea as well. Every one of your units would be extremely valuable. In fact that would be an interesting mod that you can quickly do yourself to see how the game play feels, setting all military units to 1 pop cost in the editor. For your personal games, you might find yourself playing that mod more often than not.

 

[The Last Conformist]

@Rammstein: It would make the game easier, at least on the higher levels, where the AI usually outnumber you.

 

[BassDude726]

I think they already do have a limit on military size, in the form of charging extra for each unit that goes over the size that you can support from what is apparently your military budget. Sure, there are ways around it, but when it comes down to it you really can't have a 10,000 unit army.

 

[Dr. Broom]

There does need to be a limit placed on military size and all ideas are good here but I would suggest that the idea Vizurok brought up from EU(EU=Europa Universalis?). Seems like it covers the broad idea best because if it was military per population point I would think it doesn't represent real life as well since not everyone is in the military while the idea for using a population point for each unit made isn't as good because military personel often still live in the city and serve the military and if they are in the reserves they often have another job additionally. The EU system sounds like it is very good, especially if it has its variations in age, government, etc.

 

[CyberChrist]

They should introduced a more complex system for unit upkeep - some units might require food(foot soldiers, cavalry etc.) and others production(siege engines, tanks etc.) as well as payment for maintenance.

This would also require a better way to handle national food and production reserves/surplus sharing - current system of each city to their own is in dire need of an upgrade anyway.

 

[Dr. Broom]

I don't like the idea of stuff requiring production and food but things do need to be supported better. I mean come on wouldn't it cost more to upkeep a battleship and its crew than it would to upkeep a marine or infantry? Now both only cost 1 gold which is just plain stupid.

 

[Commander Bello]

I'm currently checking my mod with units up to riflemen consume one pop (excepts for scouts and cats/trebs/cannons), and from there consuming even 2 pop per unit (again, except for artillery type units and airplanes, with ships consuming just one pop).

Playing on emperor level (so the AI has the start-up advantages) the first checks show that it works quite good.
Big military campaigns really put havoc upon your economy and you're forced to be careful with your military units, since they are literally unreplaceable.
Althoug this is very abstract (for sure, one pop in principle is more than one military unit), it gives a more "realistic" feeling - at least for me.
I would be glad, if such a feature would be implemented into Civ4.

 

[Dr. Broom]

Yes something similar would be nice for those of us who don't know how to mod.

 

[Fake Gustave]

So you are saying that the AI responded quite well in this model?

Was it sending attack troops or was it mainly garrisoning cities with what it could (say like 2 defenders in each town)

 

[sealman]

I am opposed to any limits on military strength.

Spoken like a true warmonger!

 

[Commander Bello]

So you are saying that the AI responded quite well in this model?

Was it sending attack troops or was it mainly garrisoning cities with what it could (say like 2 defenders in each town)

It was sending attack troops like hell. In one of the current test games I'm just surviving due to my AC armies (seems, I am the only one to have ivory).
At the mentioned level the engine seems to be able to handle it, most probably due to it's initial advantages, so it does not loose any time at early exploration.
I will report more experiences, as soon as I've learned more.