Longbow rules.

[Corinthian]

I've come up with a few new rules for longbows and crossbows, I'd appreciate some feedback.

Basically, both these units should be barrage units (range 1), rather than attackers. Also, the prerequesite should be Feudalism.
Additionally, in Europe only the English (and mongol invaders) fielded significant numbers of archers, I believe that the Longbowman should be an English unique unit.

 

[Corinthian]

Bu**er! Posted that one by accident! Now I've got to add the rest as another post!

The standard attack should be 1, the defence should be comparable to the best medieval defenders.

Why a barrage unit? Basically, longbowmen were kept at a distance, and softened up the enemy for the knights. The English archers were especially affraid of close quarters battle, as any captured man would most likely be immediately killed rather than ransomed or traded. This was because archers were so effective as battle winning troops that the enemy never wanted to see them fight again. Also archers were lightly armed and armoured for mobility and cost of equipment, and wouldn't have lasted long in a mellee, anyhow.

Incidentally, the 'one fingered salute' was invented by these archers. A compromise by the opposition would be to cut off a captered archers string finger. Before a battle 'intact' archers would taunt the enemy, "Look at us, we can draw bow!".

Why an English UU?
Feudal England passed a law requiring all men to practice archery. This paid off during the hundred years war, when hundreds of ready trained archers were drafted, from peasants to convicts.

Crossbows.

Other countries didn't train archers in such numbers. Crossbows are easy to learn (like rifles), and easy to use. Longbows require a great deal of strength to draw. Winch crossbows, though, were less accurate, and could only fire three times a minute (as opposed to twenty or thirty times for a longbow!). Barrage strength and shield cost should reflect this lower performance.

Do these units work better as firebases, or should they be left as they are?

 

[Kal-el]

we are thinking along the same lines here yet again.

my thoughts are that any missile weapon from the archer to the modern armor should have the bombard flag as welll as ZoC. it would just be a matter of playing around with the numbers to get this to work. Of course the earlier units should then have their attack strengths lowered accordingly, i.e. the archer with bombard should only have an attack of 1 rather than 2.

this promotes combined arms attacks. requiring that the archers be accompanied by warriors or swordsmen. Maybe there shouls be another unit between the warrior 1/1/1 and the Swordsman 3/2/1.

 

[Optimizer]

This makes sense indeed.

One note:
The thing about the one finger salute is a myth. More information at snopes2.com

 

[Kryten]

Originally posted by Optimizer
The thing about the one finger salute is a myth. More information at snopes2.com

You are quite right, the one finger salute is a myth, because the British people have always used a TWO FINGER salute! (watch any London taxi driver). Thats why you see Winston Churchill showing two fingers to the camera in old WW2 news films; it's a sign for 'up yours Hitler' as well as 'victory' (and my understanding is that it DID come about because of what the French knights wanted to do to captured English yeomen).
I know that Americans use a single finger, as do the Italians, but we British use TWO fingers (as well as driving on the other side of the road!).

To Kal-el,

I like to think that each tile in civ3 represents some 10 to 20 miles, so only fast mounted troops should have ZOC (in reality cavalry was used to harass enemy columns as they passed by). Just a thought.

 

[Kal-el]

Kryten,

yeah, I understand that, but the idea is to give missile units a chance to damage an attacker before the attacker can close the gap to engage in close combat.

just an idea.

 

[Anglophile]

Semi-agree with this approach, especially with respect to English Longbowmen. The English longbowmen were essentially defensive units - they slaughtered attackers not attacked defenders. Bombard may be the best way to do this but more realistic/historical would be a low attack rating and a good defence rating with a bombard skill representing the depletion of the attackers ranks as he advances into combat. Would also recommend looking at Plutarch's excellent LWC erp5 mod which has the longbowman as the English UU and a fabulous unit it is:
6 (6) 3 1 from memory. My view is that the attack and defence values should probably be reversed but it does make it easy to enter a Golden Age.

 

[Kryten]

To Kal-el,

I agree, but isn't that done by units having the bombarbment ability? I was under the impression that ZOC is something completely different, and only allows units to make a one volley attack on any enemy that tries to pass through an adjacent tile (unlike the old civ2 days which stopped adjacent movement altogether). So yes, defensive bombardment is a good idea for some missle units. But ZOC is an involuntary attack against passing units.

To Anglophile,

Yes, the Longbow should be an English UU, but I don't think that it should cause a 'Golden Age'. The English 'Golden Age' in reality did not start untill the 18th century.

(BTW, if we Brits can build the Longbow, than so should the Yanks, as they WERE culturally English, at least unitll the late 1700's!)

 

[Anglophile]

One could argue that the English GA started in 1588 (if my memory for dates is correct) - the same day the Spanish GA ended - but that is still way later than you will get it with the longbowman. I had never actually worked through that the UUs were designed to give GAs in the right historical era. I guess that I will have to ignore history and pretend that Agincourt/Crecy was the start of the GA as mid middle ages seems to me the best time to have a GA - all those key Wonders are available then and normally one is moving from all out expansion (at least on the bigger maps) to consolidation and probably border wars. Difficult to do it all with a youngish civ; much easier in a GA.

The main problem with the ship of the line as the English UU is that it is effective for such a short time - England did 'rule the waves' more or less for the better part of 4 centuries afterall - an upgraded galleon or whatever might make a better UU for both historical accuracy and game play.

 

[Corinthian]

My problem with the man-o-war as a UU was that it was a major disadvantage if landlocked. England's GA is seen to be associated with naval power only because we are an island nation. Otherwise England has only demonstrated global superiority on (arguably) 3 occasions.
1. The longbowmen of the continental wars

2. The industrial and scientific revolutions (very debatable)

3. The battle of Britain - let's face it, the dominance of the skies and the bravery of our pilots during WWII was our finest hour.

 

[Anglophile]

Yes, sorry man-o-war not ship of the line. Well, Corinthian, England certainly was the starting place for the Industrial Revolution and Newton was the founder of both calculus and, more famously, modern physics. Newtonian physics still applies to everything big enough to see and Einstein simply (well brilliantly and with absolute genius) extended it to most everything else. Until biochemistry, starting with Watson and Crick in Oxbridge, physics was the queen of sciences (a tough admission for a chemist) for 3 centuries so England has a legitimate claim here as well.

From Marlborough and Blenheim through Wellington and Waterloo, the English infantryman was the best soldier in the world, due to the discipline and bravery (or other attribute) that allowed them to fight in lines and fire in volleys when the rest of Europe used columns. Didn't work all that well in North American forests but pretty well everywhere else in the world. So 'Redcoat' would be a legitimate contender for UU as well.

Finally, and most importantly, England demonstrated global superiority in 1966 and, Spice Boy and Michael Owen willing, they will again this year!

 

[Corinthian]

I don't know about the UK infantry - from bowmen to riflemen, the majority were criminals offered amnesty, likely as not they had little choice but fight, or face court martial for "lack of moral fibre".

Though I have nothing but admiration for those who gave up their lives for that "corner of some foreign field that shall be forever England", I have nothing but contempt for the many unimaginative leaders who sent their troops into the meatgrinder.

Even today with gulf war syndrome and outdated SA-80 rifles, it's the grunts who get it the worst.

On a lighter note, how about Sven Goran Erikson (pardon my spelling) as a great leader!

 

[Kryten]

Originally posted by Anglophile
One could argue that the English GA started in 1588 (if my memory for dates is correct) - the same day the Spanish GA ended - but that is still way later than you will get it with the longbowman. I had never actually worked through that the UUs were designed to give GAs in the right historical era. I guess that I will have to ignore history and pretend that Agincourt/Crecy was the start of the GA as mid middle ages seems to me the best time to have a GA - all those key Wonders are available then and normally one is moving from all out expansion (at least on the bigger maps) to consolidation and probably border wars. Difficult to do it all with a youngish civ; much easier in a GA.

The main problem with the ship of the line as the English UU is that it is effective for such a short time - England did 'rule the waves' more or less for the better part of 4 centuries afterall - an upgraded galleon or whatever might make a better UU for both historical accuracy and game play.

Remember that Unique Units only create a 'Goldeb Age' if that type of unit ability is highlighted. So it is possible to make Longbows a UU for the English (and Americans?) and make it so that it doesn't cause a 'GA'.

As for the Man-o-War, your right, it's "ruling the waves" period is far too short. One soultion I like to do is move the Ironclad to 'The Corporation'. It makes sense to have factories and coal plants to before you can build iron warships (and the Royal Navy took many years and a lot of persuasion before they reluctantly adopted steam power, let alone armour plate!).

 

[Anglophile]

I do like Longbowmen as the English UU, but if you mod them not to cause a GA, then you lose that path to the GA, which is a major disadvantage. Unless you can have two UUs per civ, which would be a lot of work. I know that has been discussed in other threads, the LWC thread for one I think, but I've never seen it implemented. On levels up to Monarch, it would be OK as I can normally get an early Wonder (by the early Middle Ages) to trigger it, but getting Wonders becomes much more competitive on Emperor and I imagine on Deity is very, very difficult.

The idea of delaying the ironclad is reasonable since they didn't appear in any numbers until early last century, but if the man o' war is my UU, then I would also like to see it appear earlier as well. I might look at two UUs but if I only do it for England, it would be unbalancing, and if I do it for all civs, it would overwhelm my graphical capabilities.

 

[Kal-el]

why not make the Man-O-War available with Navigation instead of Magnetism and make navigation a requirement for magnetism?

the english will have a much more powerful navy than anybody else possibly long befoer anybody else even gets frigates depending on how you go about your research.

I think I will this implement this in the "double your pleasure mod"

IMO the longbowman shouldn't trigger a golden age.

 

[Anglophile]

Kal-el, good suggestions; I think that I'll do just that for my next game. Right now I've got a bunch of longbowmen hoping that someone will go to war with me and trigger my GA. Those French knights are looking appetizing.

 

[Anglophile]

Kal-el, good suggestions; I think that I'll do just that for my next game. Right now I've got a bunch of longbowmen hoping that someone will go to war with me and trigger my GA. Those French knights are looking appetizing.

 

[Kal-el]

So, I have been working on the unit’s stats for my new mod and I gave bombardment to all missile attack units. I am not sure how the ratings for bombard work though and was hoping to get some feedback. Please take a look and let me know what you think.