Machine Guns or Infantry for stack defense?

[6K Man]

Or both?

I'm plotting a seaborne invasion and am trying to determine what mix of units would do the best job of defending against a counter attack. My opponent has a large number of Cannon, Cuirassiers and Grenadiers, and his vassal has Riflemen/Artillery at this point (20+ of each that I can see).

I initially thought that MGs were the best choice to defend in stacks, because they are immune to collateral. But their weakness is against Artillery, which I will be facing pretty soon after invasion. On the other hand, if I defend with Infantry, they'll do well until after the 5th Artillery attack or so, after which they'll have been collaterally damaged enough to be easy pickings. Thus my dilemma.

Anyone done any analysis on this?

 

[Rubbaduck]

Your stacks basic footman is infantry, thus it leaves the special position of stack defence for MGs. It's a bit of an overkill against grens though.

If you're fighting the AI, they won't be attacking you with artillery.

 

[Refar]

It's not like you set to defend with MG's only or Infantry only - you will have a mixed stack. If your stack is attacked by units MG are bad against, a infantryman will step up to defend. Having a few MG in the stack - to defend after massive collateral damage is a good idea.

 

[6K Man]

Thanks to you both... I had the same thoughts, more or less, but wanted to make sure I wasn't overlooking something.

Is the advice any different if I have a free Drill I for my Infantry, and can upgrade them to Drill III (Barracks + Pentagon) easily? Drill III gives -60% collateral damage...

 

[Refar]

Hmmm in that case you probly could do without MG's. But i would still take a few - Immune is Better than -60%, MG are Cheaper and you might have better promotion Options for your Infantry than Drill Line.

 

[Commodore Nate]

Load 2 transports with machine guns and drill infantry. Give a few machine guns guerrilla and promote the rest as you see fit. Park everyone on a (preferably forested) hill near a city, and have a transport on hand with infantry/mguns to reinforce if necessary.
Once you've established this beachhead, wait for the tidal wave of units in between turns. When your turn begins, move in your attack force from transports and use ships to bombard culture defenses.

Rinse and repeat, with an optional land-based expeditionary force.

 

[Crighton]

i'd say follow commodore nate's advise with the added thought of making one mg in each diversionary landing a medic promotted mg (if it survives it makes the diversion last longer and oh so much more painfull).

 

[Tephros]

machine guns don't get guerilla promos, unless you upgrade a crossbow or something.

You should probably have one or two machine gunners per stack. They are the first unit that can intercept aircraft (though anti-tanks are better at this given they can get interception bonuses), and more importantly they are immune to collateral. If the AI attacks with artillery, and I assure you sometimes they do, your machine gunners will defend last. The good thing about this is that they won't take collateral. So if you get hit hard with artillery, your full-health machine gunners will save you from the units that may otherwise mop up your weakened infantry. I dislike the drill line, and drill IV won't give your infantry immunity to collateral, just resistance. So MG's are ironically a good defense against the attack after an artillery barrage, provided they don't get directly attacked by artillery.

 

[Skallagrimson]

If I can affort it my stack D will include at least 1 MG with Guerilla II upgraded from a Grenadier, and 1 MG with Woodsman II similarly upgraded, and then one traditional MG with the Drill line for open-field defense. In addition to that I'll keep around a few Riflemen with CII-Formation as "pikemen with bullets" to cover cavalry charges. One or two infantry with the combat line for general-purpose open-field war, and then however many infantry I got upgraded from macemen with CRIII. The rest is a mish mash of cavs, siege, and some throw-away units for when I need some suiciders and don't want to waste siege on a hilltop city defended with low numbers of strong units.

 

[drhirsch]

Machine Guns excel in defense against grenadiers. In the last BOTM I got a small stack (about 5) of level 5 MGs while severel enemy stacks were attacking.

They were all promoted to Drill V, Medic after a short time and absolutly undestroyable for Grens. It was very funny watching the AI destroying huge amounts of troops vs those MGs.

But this was a very special position, I had a tech lead, but not enough troops to expand my foothold. The enemy did attack with Grens and Trebs, later some Cav, but no Cannons or Rifles.


I would use a mixed stack of the usual defensive units as collateral soackers and add in some MGs, especially if you expect some Grens to come.

 

[UncleJJ]

My favourite machine guns are Japanese. Toku can produce a grenadier with combat1, CG1, Drill1 which is then promoted to Woodsman 3 (only needs 10 exp) and upgraded to machine gun. That gives +15% healing, and 3.5 first strikes, is immune to collateral from seige (but not bombers), gets +50% versus gunpowder troops and C1,CG1. If it gets a further promotion you can add medic1 and have a non-GG super healer for the stack.

I also like making CG3 machine guns to defend in a newly captured city by upgrading either grenadiers or crossbows. Machine guns are great against most troops in their age but do have a weakness to cavalry (who damage them then withdraw) allowing a second one to kill, and artillery are only slightly weaker unless there is a good terrain bonus. Against artillery and cavalry the guerilla and woodsman bonusses are particularly useful. Also machine guns should be accompanied by rifles or grenadiers, at least, as there are few things more annoying than a machine gun defending successfully against attackers who have withdrawn from combat (mounted and seige) and then not being able to finish them off.

 

[mirthadir]

My favourite machine guns are Japanese. Toku can produce a grenadier with combat1, CG1, Drill1 which is then promoted to Woodsman 3 (only needs 10 exp) and upgraded to machine gun. That gives +15% healing, and 3.5 first strikes, is immune to collateral from seige (but not bombers), gets +50% versus gunpowder troops and C1,CG1. If it gets a further promotion you can add medic1 and have a non-GG super healer for the stack.

I also like making CG3 machine guns to defend in a newly captured city by upgrading either grenadiers or crossbows. Machine guns are great against most troops in their age but do have a weakness to cavalry (who damage them then withdraw) allowing a second one to kill, and artillery are only slightly weaker unless there is a good terrain bonus. Against artillery and cavalry the guerilla and woodsman bonusses are particularly useful. Also machine guns should be accompanied by rifles or grenadiers, at least, as there are few things more annoying than a machine gun defending successfully against attackers who have withdrawn from combat (mounted and seige) and then not being able to finish them off.

I prefer Churchill. You sacrifice C1 but you more reliably get the 4th and 4th promos. I also prefer cav (or upgraded impis) for my "beat up the withdrawn guys" unit. Two moves allows me to kill whatever the unit is and then get back in the trees with my Woody III MG. Again with Churchill this has the potential to eventually make commando cav for worker killing, rail burning, and resource denial.

 

[CivCorpse]

Machine guns are great against most troops in their age but do have a weakness to cavalry (who damage them then withdraw) allowing a second one to kill,

Afraid not, Cav do flanking damage to cannons, trebs and cats but not MG's.

 

[UncleJJ]

I didn't say Flanking damage now did I?

I meant that a strength 15 unit with combat 2 and 30% withdrawl chance can take on unit with 18 strength with a good chance of beating it. If that doesn't happen then a second cavalry will finish off the leftovers. It has happened to me numerous times

 

[ppciv4]

of cause machine gun.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I didn't say Flanking damage now did I?

I meant that a strength 15 unit with combat 2 and 30% withdrawl chance can take on unit with 18 strength with a good chance of beating it. If that doesn't happen then a second cavalry will finish off the leftovers. It has happened to me numerous times

Kind of backwards, really. Cavs are weak to rifles, strong against machine guns, weaker to infantry. In theory though out of the weapons in each type of unit, machine guns should fare best against a cavalry charge.

 

[Tephros]

I didn't say Flanking damage now did I?

I meant that a strength 15 unit with combat 2 and 30% withdrawl chance can take on unit with 18 strength with a good chance of beating it. If that doesn't happen then a second cavalry will finish off the leftovers. It has happened to me numerous times

If it's a drill MG on defensive terrain, flanking II promo would be ideal for the initial hit and run attack. Flanking II makes the cavalry immune to first strikes and a 60% chance to withdraw on top of some small victory chance.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Hmmmmm, for infantry or machine guns...

Obviously you'd want both. But...the two techs aren't exactly on the same tech path. If I choose, it's almost always infantry first, because assembly line is a spectacular bonus too...and infantry can attack. Collateral damage is seldom a true problem VS the AI. Lots of annoying defenders holed up in cities is a major problem however!

Later on MG's can aid with stack defense once attained. It's unlikely the AI will be able to use anything that attacks decent odds vs infantry anyway (even other infantry would just be average at best if you promote well). MG's can't attack and are weaker to cavalry, so they'd come 2nd.

 

[Tephros]

Hmmmmm, for infantry or machine guns...

Obviously you'd want both. But...the two techs aren't exactly on the same tech path. If I choose, it's almost always infantry first, because assembly line is a spectacular bonus too...and infantry can attack. Collateral damage is seldom a true problem VS the AI. Lots of annoying defenders holed up in cities is a major problem however!

Later on MG's can aid with stack defense once attained. It's unlikely the AI will be able to use anything that attacks decent odds vs infantry anyway (even other infantry would just be average at best if you promote well). MG's can't attack and are weaker to cavalry, so they'd come 2nd.

I generally go assembly line first too, but mostly because having infantry is more important than having machine guns. Though obviously having both is even better. Both techs give you substantial production increases, though assembly line requires an investment in factories/plants and a loss of health. Railroad allows a lot of your tiles to get an extra hammer, plus you can found the corporation that requires the least tech and also boosts production: Mining Inc.

 

[UncleJJ]

Izzy might be an exception but she can get by without using infantry at all. I did that in my last game with her. It was an emperor archipelago map and I had TGL and her citadel in several cities that I wanted to keep. That means I avoided Economics and Corporation and so couldn't have Assembly Line. With Theocracy and the citadel I was building artillery and machine guns with 10 exp into the late game and they certainly rock. The key to this approach is Flight. That solved most late game problems, giving carriers, fighters and airports. So the best attackers I had were rifles and grenadiers, cavalry and conquistadors, following behind lots of artillery which followed behind fighters and bombers. Machine guns were both built with the citadel and upgraded from grenadiers (for woodsman, guerilla and CG promotions) and they were the main stack protectors.

An interesting thing happened when I researched Rocketry and gained SAM infantry. I was running Nationhood and found that instead of drafting rifles I could draft SAM infantry, not something I really wanted to do as they cost 2 pop. So with Rocketry and no Assembly Line you draft SAM infantry. From there I went on and researched Advanced Flight and upgraded my highly promoted cavalry and conquistadors to gunships, even though that was overkill.

I conclude that infantry are not needed as long as you have Flight and provided you don't want corporations you can keep the Great Lighthouse until the end of the game. That's useful on some maps.