Making a demand

[Victoria]

I had never made a demand of any civ before but tonight, while waiting 5 turns for a denouncement Casus I demanded furs off Gilgamesh and he gave them to me for a -5 permanent "We made a demand of them"

What was surprising was my military was not double theirs (811 strength to 443)... But most of it was on their border.

I was just wondering if anyone else had made similar demands and if they had noticed anything like strengths and when it had and had not worked. The overall dip modifier at the time for me was -9.

 

[Esperr]

currently 268 hours. Didn't even know that was a feature. I wonder if there are parameters for it and variance or if it always set in stone when it does and doesn't work?

 

[nzcamel]

I have finally had an AI make demands of me in my latest game. Tomy wanted something. She's across an "ocean" (there are no oceans in VI ) and not as strong as me, so I rebuffed that - given my precarious position with everyone in the game at the mo, I may have given her what she wanted otherwise.

 

[Victoria]

You can make a demand of anyone but declared friends and allies. You only get the -5 if they give in but it seems permanent

 

[Lanthar]

Permanent seems harsh...you would think the opponent would get over it eventually. I'll admit I haven't messed much with diplomacy, it's a lot of work when they end up just hating me by the end anyway. I think the system has potential, but still needs a lot of adjustment.

 

[Victoria]

I am not so sure @Lanthar , I have been messing around a bit.
If you want to wipe out all civs then of course you will not be hated by the end because there is no-one left. If the primary aim is to win a military victory then you shoukd be able to do it without too much hate.
Its just that -18 for having their city which is nasty. If my theory is right you can get around it

 

[Lanthar]

Lol @Victoria! Agreed that if I wipe them all out, they're too busy being dead to hate me.

I do get the urge to play military victory games from the start, but most of the time I don't start out with a specific victory condition in mind. I'll fight wars to gain more territory or resources, stop someone from winning, or because the AI settled too close. The very aggressive forward settling the AI does now pretty much guarantees that I'll be hated, since I will clear out those AI cities directly on my borders.

I'm interested to hear if your theory plays out.

 

[nzcamel]

It'd be nice to be able to uplift a city by building a settler once the pop is really low like you could in....Civ III?
Then I'm not committing genocide cos the AI plonked their city in the wrong space next to my capital. I'm merely relocating their population instead

 

[Lanthar]

I think it was Civ III where you could change a city's racial/cultural makeup by adding in settlers of your own people. I think you could also disband a city by building a settler when it had 2 population or something.

 

[agonistes]

I have civs whose cities I've taken asking to be allied with me.

As long as an alliance includes open borders, no way in hell.

As I've mentioned, giving a civ a city negates the penalty. Want a city? Take two, have them ceded, later give one back.

Liberation is not giving, fyi. It gives you the +20, but does not negate the penalty. Need to actually gift them a city.

For example... I took Corinth from Greece and had it ceded, then gave it to Poland (you are still considered an occupier by Greece btw). So I get the penalty from Greece for occupying.

Then I take Ephesus from Greece, have it ceded. Gift it back to Greece. Greece forgives me for Corinth.

As a bonus (and because Jadwiga is pressing my buttons this game), I liberate Corinth back to Greece. Now I have +25 with Greece. Note that this would be the case even if I had kept a third greek city.

Despite owning Norwegian, Scythian, and Polish cities, I have no penalty with any of them, have a +5 liberation with all of them, and another +20 liberation with two of them.

As for demands, the demands I would use are not in the game.

"I demand you make peace with France."

"I demand you make peace with Jakarta, or thout shall be whalloped."

"I demand you pull your troops back lest ye buttocks be prodded."

My sweet fantasy: "I demand you let my troops through (on this narrow line of tiles) so I may invade Germany. But do as you must. I have no problem attacking you first."

Demanding a sugar cube isn't worth my time.

But in a game where I had 4 broken border promises because they dowed on me and I was lesson teaching, my hopes aren't high. The effort was just never put into diplomacy. Maybe an expansion will help.

 

[Victoria]

The gifting cities is a crap exploit, especially if you can negate the -18 by giving cities back in the peace deal.

I'm interested in this thread about any experiences with demands. My experience with allies is they do not camp your land which tends to happen more with a trapped soul whose tile gets taken by the city.

You seem to play a strong game @agonistes , trundle those troops up to a border and demand something. Let me know strength difference if you manage to, amd does the demand work as well before you get to their borders. I suspect proximity has something to do with it like in civ V

 

[agonistes]

The gifting cities is a crap exploit, especially if you can negate the -18 by giving cities back in the peace deal.

I'm interested in this thread about any experiences with demands. My experience with allies is they do not camp your land which tends to happen more with a trapped soul whose tile gets taken by the city.

I'm seriously afraid of alliances. Civ has taught me to never trust open borders. I allied with Australia briefly, and the anxiety nearly killed me.

My experience with demands is equally limited. I've tried to make one, but never see an option that's worth it. Imo after this last patch, the ai is making many more demands of me. Everyone who has denounced me is making demands. I am Russia on the giant earth, btw, and have settled from Finland to the Sea of Japan with an appropriate army. Germany had 4 cities and makes demands all the time.

Its not a "crap exploit." Its a result of. I don't take advantage of it... I always end up gifting cities. I'm not going to stop gifting because the penalty is there. Not being able to gift would possibly make the game unplayable for me.

edit: you are a fast typer.

I will, when I get home. I've got two armies (masses of units, not the combo) strategically placed to protect Scythia from Persia, and I denounced Cyrus. I'll move my guys south. I've already got a navy guarding Muscat in the Persian Gulf, too, so my presence should be fairly strong.

 

[Victoria]

So the -18 is a pain but last night when I took Gilgamesh, I gave 2 cities back to him but kept his capital, I got no -18. Trung to test it tonight but the Arabs are proving a tough nut, I should have dropped difficulty

Yup ... I have taken 3 of Saladins cities. If I keep all 3 I get -18 but if I give just 1 back... no -18
No need for gifting cities although naturally if you want to play that way feel free.

 

[ShakaKhan]

I think the game element of diplomatic demands was intended more for the AI to use against you than it was for you to use against an AI.

When an AI is equally or more strong than you and/or is on your border and makes a demand, it creates an interesting choice for the player. Do I give them what they want or suffer the diplomatic penalty which may or may not lead to war? While the loss of ceding to the demand is obvious, what are the potential and probable losses that will occur by not giving in to the demand?

From the other angle, demanding from an AI is pretty straight-forward. What you would gain from making a demand is less valuable than the diplomatic penalty IF your diplomatic standing with that AI has any value to you. So if your diplomatic standing with an AI has no value because you're going to (or are easily able to) annihilate them anyway, see what you can get away with. If the diplomatic standing with that AI does have some value because you don't intend on declaring war on them anytime soon, then what they would be willing to give you is far outweighed by the penalty you would incur from demanding it.

 

[nzcamel]

I have civs whose cities I've taken asking to be allied with me.

As long as an alliance includes open borders, no way in hell.

They say that all alliances come with open borders...but it looks like you can remove it from the table when negotiating.
Which is good, cos the little punks will use that to come settle in between your cities.

As for demands, the demands I would use are not in the game.

"I demand you make peace with France."

"I demand you make peace with Jakarta, or thout shall be whalloped."

"I demand you pull your troops back lest ye buttocks be prodded."

My sweet fantasy: "I demand you let my troops through (on this narrow line of tiles) so I may invade Germany. But do as you must. I have no problem attacking you first."

I'd like some of those options too

 

[craney1987]

from what I've noticed, proximity is key.

I'm currently playing as macedon on prince difficulty. Having steam rolled India I turned my attention to my only other continental neighbour Germany. I thought I'd try to aggravate Germany into dowing me. Whilst in the diplo screen I also found demand. He gave me anything I demanded except cities or relics. My military strength was roughly double Germany. Intrigued by demand I thought I'd make the same demands of the lowest ranked civ. Russia on the other continent. They essentially had no military might but refused all demands.
so yea I think proximity to your own military is probably the big driver here.
personally I think its only worth it for the gold. If I'm demanding like this I'm probably about to go to war, in which case I'm probably looking at cities with those luxuries anyways.

 

[Victoria]

@nzcamel I am not sure if you can remove the open borders bit, because during negotiations you get the choice to both open and close so its probably just been left on the screen by the devs. Try it.

 

[nzcamel]

@nzcamel I am not sure if you can remove the open borders bit, because during negotiations you get the choice to both open and close so ots probably just been left on the screen by the devs. Try it.

I did remove it from an alliance agreement once, but I don't remember how that played out. You're probably right lol

 

[agonistes]

They say that all alliances come with open borders...but it looks like you can remove it from the table when negotiating.
Which is good, cos the little punks will use that to come settle in between your cities.



I'd like some of those options too

Yep, I believe you are stuck with open borders. I'm not crazy enough to test it. Victoria can. She loves doing stuff like that.

 

[Victoria]

The trouble is I cannot push their units into my territory if they are my allies. Maybe if I put out some nice tea and scones in the marketplace... if they don't come I know my borders are closed