Medieval scenarios?

[mcv]

I recently got back to playing Civ 2 when I discovered all the scenarios on the web, and I've been having lots of fun with Imperium Romanum (amazingly well done) and AE-3500B, which was listed somewhere as "Seeds of Greatness", so I'm not sure which of those is supposed to be the official name.

Anyway, there are lots of Ancient scenarios and quite a number of WW2 and SF scenarios, but I'm looking for a scenario that handles the middle ages well. I've seen one about the reconquista of Spain, but I haven't found any highly rated scenarios dealing with the entire middle ages. Does one exist? Is it good?

If I can find a good one, I may even decide to write one myself. I haven't got any experience making Civ2 scenarios, it sounds like a lot of work and I've just started to write my own computer game, so I probably won't have time for it, but it would give me the opportunity to add a new scenario to the collection.

Just to make this post even longer, here are some of my ideas:

I want to start each civilisation small, as that makes them much more accessible IMO. If you've built or conquered each city with your own bare hands, you have a much better feel for it than if you start with a complete empire.
I'd prefer to start in the Dark Ages, where the Huns drove the growing German tribes into the Roman empire, after which Rome was sacked a couple of times, and the Germanic tribes founded nations that would later grow into France and other European nations.
This immediately raises a couple of problems:

1: In Civ2, citties aren't sacked, but conquered. And I don't want the Visigoths staying in italy.

2: Civilisations don't move around. They stay put and expand. How can I get the German tribes to move west instead of fighting to the death with the Huns?

These two can be tackled by starting just after the Franks, Saxons, Bourgondians and whoever else have been driven
westwards, and are positioned to attack the Roman/Celtic cities of Gaul and Brittanica. Starting with those cities already in Frankish hands conflicts with my intention to start small, although you can ask yourself how small a start it is to have a big army standing just outside those cities.

However:

3: If I take the historic route, a certain Frankish leader called Charlemagne will conquer most of Europe, and after his death his empire will be split up again. How the hell can I do something like that in Civ2? The fact that in, for example, Imperium Romanum, Alexander's empire doesn't split up after his death, suggests to me that it's impossible.

Maybe I can have an event give specified cities from one civilisation to another, but what if I don't know which cities Charlemagne will conquer? And what if new cities are founded?
Now Imperium Romanum also required you to quit and switch to a new events file a couple of times, so would it be possible to do something like that, and have a program edit the save file to switch ownership of cities between certain coordinates?

And would I also be able to change names of civilisations during the game? I'll probably want to get rid of the Romans at some point, call the Franks French, and change lots of other names.

Basically, what this boils down to is: how readable and editable are the save files?

But perhaps I'm being a bit too ambitious here.


mcv.

 

[Andrew Livings]

Basically, what this boils down to is: how readable and editable are the save files?

As a programmer I hope you'll be familiar with hex-editing. if so, look no further than here
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=50848

We need to break your post down into more manageable chunks; rest assured, I'm certain there's a technical solution to each problem. And I wish I could post more tonight...

 

[mcv]

Originally posted by Andrew Livings


As a programmer I hope you'll be familiar with hex-editing.

I know what it is, but I prefer nice and readable XML. No such luck here, I'm afraid. Thanks for the link.

We need to break your post down into more manageable chunks;

I admit it is a bit big.

rest assured, I'm certain there's a technical solution to each problem. And I wish I could post more tonight...

Sounds good. I'll be waiting in anticipation.


mcv.

 

[Mercator]

Originally posted by mcv
Now Imperium Romanum also required you to quit and switch to a new events file a couple of times, so would it be possible to do something like that, and have a program edit the save file to switch ownership of cities between certain coordinates?

You could have a look at this thread:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=99104

I made a utility (CivSwap) that can automate file switching, it could also automatically launch such editing programs (which you'd still have to make)... It would reduce the tediousness, to a certain degree anyway.

Coincidentally, I used Imperium Romanum as an example for CivSwap, so you can already see it in action, if you wish.

 

[Morten Blaabjerg]

I started a project once, which was never quite completed. It resulted in a large bunch of graphics, ideas and rules files, which I never got around to sort out. See this thread for inspiration :

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=759080#post759080

Lately I have used the files and ideas for my "Spanish Armada" scenario and for my (yet to come) second version of "Hammer of the North". I just need to finish the html documentation for the first one, before I give it up to the public. Hammer v2 will probably not be finished before christmas.

Regarding tweaking the civ2 engine my experience is that the best solutions are often the simple ones. Too much workaround is too much trouble IMO. With a little imagination you can often use the terrains, cities, techs and units to illustrate the problem at hand. It won't be history, as you know it in books, but it will be more interesting, because you have the tools to provide alternative answers for players to historical problems.

So, first, you have to come up with a historical problem, before you can simulate the problem and its possible solutions within the framework of civ2.

The great problem with a "huge medieval scenario" is that it will inevitably be less focused than a scenario dealing with say, specific historical situations like the rise of Charlemagne, spread of monasticism, the viking raids, the black death, the 100 years war and such, which can be simulated within a relatively limited time span and be geographically limited as well. If you want to make a scenario covering a larger time span, you will be forced to make gross simplifications like in the original game. This is okay, I think, you just have to think carefully about what your grand focus of the whole thing is, and choose what not to include. Of course, there are lots of things you can leave open, but with little control over, ultimately left in player hands.

See this for more thoughts :

http://www.civfanatics.com/hist_realism.html

 

[kobayashi]

it is definitely possible for empires to split when the capital is conquered. Most everyone disables this option because you can't single out only one empire to split when its capital falls.

As I recall, Morten's Huge Medieval materials are good. I would definitely use that as my starting point.

Moving German tribes - use a unit killed => replaced by another uit in a different location event.

Visigoths staying in italy - don't give them city walls tech but give them lots of lousy defending units. This will reduce all their cities to rubble.

I also agree that you should not try to make your first attempt too complex or you will give up halfway. Some people have made a series of seperate but sequential scenarios, maybe you can try that before going for a multi-stage scenario.

 

[Mercator]

Originally posted by kobayashi
it is definitely possible for empires to split when the capital is conquered. Most everyone disables this option because you can't single out only one empire to split when its capital falls.

But unless someone has found out the exact workings of the schism, it isn't really possible to control how it will split. That is, you can't say which cities will go to which civ, nor which civ you're gonna get (not if you want more than one anyway). And especially in a long scenario, you can't really control when it will split either.

Moving German tribes - use a unit killed => replaced by another uit in a different location event.

If they don't have any cities that might help move a tribe from A to B, but it can't really simulate their nomadic travel through Europe.

Visigoths staying in italy - don't give them city walls tech but give them lots of lousy defending units. This will reduce all their cities to rubble.

But the Visigoths didn't build new cities when they arrived in Italy, they just conquered existing ones. And when they left, Italy didn't just crumble to pieces behind them.

I also agree that you should not try to make your first attempt too complex or you will give up halfway. Some people have made a series of seperate but sequential scenarios, maybe you can try that before going for a multi-stage scenario.

Indeed. Trying to simulate 500 years of history is going to be very hard. Not just all the technical aspects of creating the scenario, but also the research you'd have to do to get it historically accurate. And then there's the question whether the scenario will really be fun to play if everything has been orchestrated already anyway.

I think the only way to make a good scenario out of the middle ages is either something loosely based on it. One that starts out correct, but leaves pretty much everything else open to the player. Or alternatively, a more generic modpack... It seems both of these have been tried by Morten.

 

[mcv]

Originally posted by kobayashi
As I recall, Morten's Huge Medieval materials are good. I would definitely use that as my starting point.

I'll look for it. Sounds useful.

Moving German tribes - use a unit killed => replaced by another uit in a different location event.

Good idea. Not perfect, but with the right message, it might still give a decent impression of tribes moving westward.

Visigoths staying in italy - don't give them city walls tech but give them lots of lousy defending units. This will reduce all their cities to rubble.

But I don't want to reduce those cities to rubble. If I'm not mistaken, Rome remained the largest city in western Europe for quite a long time. I think the scenario will have to start just after the sacking. Or maybe some special events can switch ownership around or maybe rebuild the city?

I also agree that you should not try to make your first attempt too complex or you will give up halfway. Some people have made a series of seperate but sequential scenarios, maybe you can try that before going for a multi-stage scenario.

My current plan is to make one scenario that ends at Charlemagne's death. Once that is a decent scenario, I'll make a second one that starts there and ends at 1066. And only then I'm gonna worry about how to marge those into one big scenario.
The same goes for adding later periods.

Thanks for all the suggestions so far. I haven't had time to read all the links yet, but this thread is really helping me.

Unfortunately I may soon have a job, so that would cut into the time I was hoping to put into this.


mcv.