Minor Gaunlet Eight

[superslug]

Minor Gauntlet Seven has closed. Congratulations to Tone for another Gauntlet win.

And now for Seven:
Difficulty: Monarch
Mapsize: Tiny
Victory: Cultural 20K

Questions, comments, ideas and updates are highly encouraged. We run these unofficial gauntlets not only for the competition, but so that players can improve their skills.

Submissions are due by December 4th. Games started for this Gauntlet may still be submitted after the cutoff and earn Hall of Fame slots.

 

[sanabas]

Just submitted a game for this, won in 1465, so I missed first on the tables by 23 turns. I cost myself maybe 2-5 turns with little mistakes I think, just didn't have really good luck with leaders, and so couldn't challenge what's a really good date already there. One SGL from Masonry (I think) which was used for Pyramids, one from somewhere in the late middle ages, and one from theory of gravity, which was researched on the same turn as I reached 400 shields, letting me build Newton's, Sistine and JS Bach's on consecutive turns. Finished up at 153cpt I think.

The start:

The finish:

I could run 94 spt with zero growth, and either grow/starve by increasing shields by 4 and decreasing food by 2 or vice-versa. Max shields was 102 at -4 food. Finding oil with refining increased the stable spt to 96, the max to 104.

The builds:

Palace: 3950BC
Temple: 3450BC
Pyramids: 3100BC (SGL) - slight mistake, I didn't change builds via big picture when I got the SGL, so this and the next few builds should have all been 1 turn earlier.
Colossus: 2070BC
Oracle: 1375BC
Library: 1325BC
Mausoleum of Mausollos: 1025BC, triggering GA - looking at this now, I wonder if building Oracle-Mausoleum/GLib-Colossus to trigger tha GA much earlier would have been feasible. Might be one to test.
Hanging Gardens: 800BC
Great Library: 550BC - Again, I might need to test this. I think I worked out that I could build HG-GLib one turn faster than GLib-HG, due to how many spt I had at the time. I didn't actually work out whether the earlier doubling of 6cpt instead of 4cpt would offset that, and my GA ended one turn before GLib completed, so I might have stuffed up the original calculation anyway
Cathedral: 530BC
Colosseum: 490BC - Not enough cash to build both in 1 turn unfortunately
Knights Templar: 150BC - This build looks very slow compared to the next 2, I think I snuck in a couple of settlers after the colosseum, as I was still an OCC at that point.
Temple of Artemis: 260AD - Already had education by the time this finished, so it needed to be built then.
University: 270
Statue of Zeus: 340 - Took a while to get hold of Ivory, Korea had it, but didn't have their Ivory city connected to the rest of their empire, and therefore it couldn't be traded. Their Ivory city actually flipped to me before they connected it.
Shakespeare's Theater: 510
Copernicus' Observatory: 640
Heroic Epic: 650 - I took my crusaders and ancient cav off to play just before completing shakespeare's, and I received a 2nd MGL a few turns into the heroic epic build, and so changed it to cope's, and saved the MGL.
Newton's University: 780
Sistine Chapel: 790 (SGL)
JS Bach's Cathedral: 800 (SGL)
Magellan's Voyage: 930
Factory + Coal Plant: finished in 980. Lack of cash and having to find and hook up coal delayed this 3 turns as well
Universal Suffrage: 1070 (9 turns of growth, as I couldn't afford more than 3 turns of starvation at the time)
Theory of Evolution: 1130 (6 turns of starvation)
Smith's Trading Company: 1200 (7 turns of growth)
Hoover Dam: 1265 (8 turns of starvation)
At this point I was out of builds, as I didn't have enough cash to get 5 stock exchanges. I detoured my research for 4 turns to get Espionage, and the AI eventually researched Military Tradition for me. If I made more effort to expand to near the dom limit, my research would have been faster, and I would have reached the modern age before running out of builds.
Wall St: 1305
Intelligence Agency: 1325
Military Academy: 1375
Apollo Program: 1405 - Korea had been wiped out much earlier, Trading via big picture gave both Byzantines and Greece Rocketry, which left me a 3/4 chance of my freebie giving a culture build. I got space flight.
Research Lab: 1410

Finished up at 20024 culture, 153cpt. Looking at the hof tables, this is my fastest ever 20k, and it's the first time I've ever had an SGL with my first tech researched. So it's not too bad.

 

[Tone]

That looks like a good date and it'll take some beating IMO. (I'll give it a go at some point though. )

 

[LulThyme]

Some comments :
the big one is when you mention that you are still an OCC in 150 BC!!
This probably cost you over 10 turns.
The trick is to get a Settler in the beggining, right after the temple,
right after the pyramids (so that you have a granary). This one goes to found a close worker factory which will improve the lands around capital and join worker to maximise to 12 as fast as possible, and then later switch to settlers and create an empire.
Then the next step is to rush republic and get a GA (time the GA with getting republic if possible). The easiest way to get the GA is MOM and I often built it before GL if I didnt have a SGL and I was ready for my GA. this is one of the decision which depended a lot on the game. Using the UU is also an option.

-While managing your capital is not that bad, don't forget the rest of your empire has many things it can do to optmise.
Research as fast as possible, get money to buy all culture buildings in one turn when needed disband units and such if you don't have enough money, but also GET A MGL. Heroic Epic is one of the best culture building in the game and will also make it easier to get more MGLs which are very useful. (I now it's been a long time, because I seem to remember they can rush small wonders but I'm not sure anymore).
-Also as you noticed , you were out of builds at some point.
In fact, at monarch, opponents will not be really dangerous as wonder stealers, and just attack their wonder cities if they are becoming a problem. So it is better to use them to fasten your tech pace, thus getting access to the goodies faster (theatre, factory etc...). Gifting them all your techs or almost helps them not duplicate your work for example...


This gauntlet has me itching to reinstall the game and try it....

 

[sanabas]

Some comments :
the big one is when you mention that you are still an OCC in 150 BC!!
This probably cost you over 10 turns.
The trick is to get a Settler in the beggining, right after the temple,
right after the pyramids (so that you have a granary). This one goes to found a close worker factory which will improve the lands around capital and join worker to maximise to 12 as fast as possible, and then later switch to settlers and create an empire.

Yeah, this is one I do need to remember to do. It's a bad habit I've got into through either just rushing through OCC games, and/or looking at short/medium term instead of long term. You'd think it would sink in eventually, but it depends how awake I am when I play. It was made worse in this game by the lack of a food bonus, which slowed growth even more. I don't have the patience to only play games that give me an SGL for pyramids, but when I do I need to remember to build temple-worker-SGL Pyramids-Settler-next wonder.

Then the next step is to rush republic and get a GA (time the GA with getting republic if possible). The easiest way to get the GA is MOM and I often built it before GL if I didnt have a SGL and I was ready for my GA. this is one of the decision which depended a lot on the game. Using the UU is also an option.

Yep, agree completely. republic ASAP, GA ASAP after becoming a republic. The idea of having spare SGL's is a novel one for me, they're usually few and far between. I do need to test whether building colossus first is better than going oracle-MM/GLib-colossus in GA. I think it will depend on the level and the map, higher levels risk losing colossus, bigger map sizes may not have fast enough research to reach republic before completing oracle & MM.

-While managing your capital is not that bad, don't forget the rest of your empire has many things it can do to optmise.
Research as fast as possible, get money to buy all culture buildings in one turn when needed disband units and such if you don't have enough money, but also GET A MGL. Heroic Epic is one of the best culture building in the game and will also make it easier to get more MGLs which are very useful. (I now it's been a long time, because I seem to remember they can rush small wonders but I'm not sure anymore).

Yeah, H.Epic is a big one to get early. Comes down to getting a few more cities early, so you can build a military and use them. So that compounds my habit of not bothering with expansion. MGLs beyond the first 2 aren't too important, the next small wonder isn't until the end of the MA. But that first one makes a big difference. I've been known to play 20k games where there wasn't a single war involving me, so no H.Epic.

-Also as you noticed , you were out of builds at some point.
In fact, at monarch, it is worth it to use scientific opponents and the big picture to rush the tech tree. Opponents will not be really dangerous as wonder stealers, and just attack their wonder cities if they are becoming a problem. So it is better to use them to fasten your tech pace, thus getting access to the goodies faster (theatre, factory etc...).

At any level below probably demigod I think the sci opponents are useful. First priority in picking opponents is to have a chance for a very early SGL or 2, second priority is SCI as much as possible, third is no alphabet if I'm on a high level. Hence using the 3 SCI civs with the exact same starting techs in this game. The thing I forgot to do in this game was to trade the AIs up to Electricity, so that hopefully they'll get replaceable parts for me. In this game Feudalism was my freebie, and I didn't have to research Engineering or Invvention thanks to the AI, but gunpowder onwards was all self research. IA freebies were Medicine & Nationalism, AI didn't research a single useful tech for me, partly because they were small, partly because I forgot to maximise the opportunity of it happening. i.e. give them the opportunity to do replaceable parts while I have 5-6 other techs to do, and give them the opportunity to get flight while I have mass production & tanks.

This gauntlet has me itching to reinstall the game and try it....

 

[LulThyme]

I've been known to play 20k games where there wasn't a single war involving me, so no H.Epic.




At any level below probably demigod I think the sci opponents are useful. First priority in picking opponents is to have a chance for a very early SGL or 2, second priority is SCI as much as possible, third is no alphabet if I'm on a high level. Hence using the 3 SCI civs with the exact same starting techs in this game. The thing I forgot to do in this game was to trade the AIs up to Electricity, so that hopefully they'll get replaceable parts for me. In this game Feudalism was my freebie, and I didn't have to research Engineering or Invvention thanks to the AI, but gunpowder onwards was all self research. IA freebies were Medicine & Nationalism, AI didn't research a single useful tech for me, partly because they were small, partly because I forgot to maximise the opportunity of it happening. i.e. give them the opportunity to do replaceable parts while I have 5-6 other techs to do, and give them the opportunity to get flight while I have mass production & tanks.

Concerning the first comment : this is monarch.
If you need a war, make it.
You can kick their ass around as you see fit, but not more than needed.
Also concerning research, at Monarch, they can even sometimes actually RESEARCH a tech for you, specially in AA and MA.
for example, after you give everyone every tech and you rush the top part in MA, by the time you get Free artistry, they may have, hum that tech that requires engineering and feudalism (invention?) which will save you time to rush the IA.
I am currently trying to trace my copy of civ 3, hopefully I can get it back soon enough to have time to play this in time for date.

 

[sanabas]

Concerning the first comment : this is monarch.
If you need a war, make it.
You can kick their ass around as you see fit, but not more than needed.

Yep, I know. That's what I did in this game. It was more a general comment. Either playing very quick OCC, which means by the time I have more than a completely token military, I can't be bothered making the effort to have a war and maybe finish 1 or 2 turns faster, or higher levels, where I sometimes never prepare enough to fight a proper war. Both need to get fixed by more expansion earlier.

Also concerning research, at Monarch, they can even sometimes actually RESEARCH a tech for you, specially in AA and MA.
for example, after you give everyone every tech and you rush the top part in MA, by the time you get Free artistry, they may have, hum that tech that requires engineering and feudalism (invention?) which will save you time to rush the IA.

Yes, it's Invention, and yes, they researched it for me in this game. I was hoping for gunpowder too, and I was hoping for replaceable parts, but that didn't happen. Since there's so many techs in the top half of the MA, Invention's expected, decent AI research speed can result in Gunpowder and Chemistry too. Just need to balance risk of losing wonders vs directing the AI's research to what you want.

 

[LulThyme]

The risk of losing wonder can easily be contained by military action so you can let the AIs go as research crazy as possible.
I have my copy of civ 3 tracked down, can get it this week hope it will be enough

 

[Tone]

20K-1385AD (subject to acceptance of course!) This raises the bar until LulThyme joins in.

Before this game I played almost 20 games into the MA without getting a single SGL. In one game, the start was so strong that I played well into the MA, researching 15 techs w/o an SGL in that game alone. However my luck changed with this start:

I moved the settler NW to give a powerful 20K coastal position. I had chosen the Ottomans, the Byzantines and the Germans as my three rivals. I started by researching Pottery and I got an SGL with this tech!

In 3300 I met the Ottomans and just about managed to trade for Masonry to give me the Pyramids next turn. I then built two settlers before going for the Colossus.

In 2110BC the Ottomans sneak attacked my Eastern town which was undefended. (A warrior would have been built there next turn.) I retook the town with a couple of warriors but held back on further attacks as I wanted my GA in Republic. In 1650 I got the Republic slingshot and then started building some bowmen. My GA came from MoM in 1575BC but I didn't get any promotions to elite with my small attack force. In the end I had researched all of the unknown techs in the AA and had to trade with the Ottomans to get Polytheism as my number one priority was SGL generation.

I had a couple more wars before I finally got an MGL very late in the day (1060AD) but I was lucky enough to get some more SGLs. In the end I didn't gift the AI into the next age as I always had plenty to build. I couldn't get ivory either before the Byzantines built SoZ. The other main problem was that I didn't have coal (or rubber). I had to trek southwards across sea to take it from the Germans. This delayed some builds due to a lack of rails and power plant.

My culture builds were:
(Palace 3950BC)
Temple 3400BC
Pyramids 3300BC (SGL)
Colossus 2110BC
MoM 1575BC-GA
Library 1525BC
G-Lib 1225BC
Oracle 1000BC
Colosseum 900BC
Cathedral 850BC
GLHouse 610BC
University 530BC
H-Gardens 310BC
Shakespeare 30AD
Sistine 50AD (2nd SGL for Democracy)
Copers 300AD
JSBach 310AD (3rd SGL for Invention)
K-Templar 450AD
Newton 600AD
Magellan's 770AD
Leo 910AD
Uni Suff 940AD (4th SGL for M-Trad)
Smith's 1050AD
Heroic Epic 1080AD
ToE 1170AD
Research Lab 1080AD
Mil Acad 1220AD
SETI 1230AD (5th SGL for Rockets)
UN 1290AD
Apollo 1315AD
Wall St 1330AD
Internet 1380AD

 

[LulThyme]

Looks like a good game!

 

[Tone]

I had another attempt but not as good-1425AD finish. No really early SGL and the position was weaker with no bgs and fewer river tiles. I did get two early SGLs and built MoM, GLib and Pyramids in consecutive turns. I also had access to ivory but still no early MGL.

Question to staff: If I submit that game, do I lose my 1475AD STANDARD Monarch 20K win from all HoF tables or do I still keep it when the table is filtered as the #1 spot in that catagory?

 

[Dianthus]

The 2 game limit is per table. That means you can have 2 games in the tiny Monarch 20K and another 2 in the standard Monarch 20k. Submitting a standard game won't affect your entries in the tiny table. It can affect the Any Monarch 20K table, but only for the better!

 

[Tone]

Thanks. (Another speedy response!)

 

[superslug]

The final III Minor Gauntlet has closed with Tone as the winner.

 

[Tone]

I admit it. I became obsessed again. I carried on trying to better my date and finally managed it with some really good SGL luck in the early game. The funny thing is that I'd played a large number of games without a single one and then several come along at once.

I got one for Pottery (I should have gone for Masonry first) and a second one straight after to allow me to rush Pyramids and the Oracle. I had a settler build to complete the turn before I could rush the Pyramids and had two SGLs in an undefended capital. A minor worry when an Indian warrior was just two tiles away. I kicked off my GA with MoM to give 37spt with a couple of worker joins to boost the population.

I managed to get a finish date of 1305AD. Mainly due to good fortune rather than skill or a particularly strong position (I never exceeded 90spt). List of builds ordered by final culture.

 

[sanabas]

At least 5 SGLs, 4 in the BC era. I've played a few 20k games lately, I've been averaging 1 per game, usually IA or later. Not being scientific hasn't helped though.

Very nice game, that'll take some beating. On Monarch?

 

[Tone]

Yes, it was on Monarch. Not sure about it being a nice game-more a lucky game. I did try to play out games with poor AA SGL luck but no matter how good the starting position, the bonus of a couple of SGLs in a mediocre start was still better.

I therefore decided to play games up until I got the Republic slingshot and if I didn't get an SGL by the time of the revolution I started again with a new save. With 7 tech discoveries, I had a 30% chance of at least one SGL in a game but I played over 20 games up to Republic without a single SGL. My luck was due for a change and it really did change for the better with this game. I'm sorry that I didn't keep a log but I've just replayed it and I did get 5SGLs:
3650BC
3050BC
570BC
130BC
420AD
plus an MGL in 490AD. Those early two in particular were the game breakers.

I repeat that I'm in no doubt that it was more down to luck rather than skill. I'd like to see a non-SGL 20K table but with C-IV out I guess that this is not going to happen.