Missed Opportunity - Prussia

[GunsGermsandSteel]

I find it frustrating when Civ does this (and they've done this with every Civ I've played so it's not just a civ 7 problem). Where a unique unit is kinda just tossed into the mix that doesn't jive with the actual mechanics of the civ/leader and doesn't even make sense for the time period the civ is set around.

Prussia Unique Unit - Stuka. Ugh, why???? Stuka would be GERMANY not Prussia. The 'German' representation we have is clearly intended for the 1700-1800s except for the Stuka. It should've been Needle Gunner. Use of the Prussian Needle Rifle was a major technological advancement that put Prussia leagues ahead in the Austrian and French wars of the 1870s. Would've fit so well with the civ representation as well as Fredrich's bonuses (free infantry w/ construction, and land commander bonus).

The other problem I have with Stuka is that if you're playing Prussia you'll probably go for Fascism Ideology. Welp, big airplane production unlock bonus only comes in democracy. Why is it that one of the only unique planes goes to a civ that doesn't fit in with the ideology that likely fits with the playstyle?

 

[JNR13]

I mean, I have my own objections to the Stuka because it wasn't just some war tech but because genocidal terror was core to its design and acting as if it can just be an apolitical machine is whitewhashing why it existed.

However, I think it can be vaguely justified to assign it to Prussia. Prussia existed until 1945 not just as any substate of Germany but as by far its largest. Not only that, but Prussian aristocratic traditions remained alive and well especially in the military's higher ranks.

The Doylist explanation would be that they probably planned Prussia for the Industrial Age and Germany for the Atomic Age, and when they scrapped these into a single age, they went with Prussia for the more age-specific and leader-related flavor but had already made the Stuka as well (hence 2 UUs; similar to Russia being a merger of Imperial Russia and the Soviet Union).

 

[queenpea]

I mean, I have my own objections to the Stuka because it wasn't just some war tech but because genocidal terror was core to its design and acting as if it can just be an apolitical machine is whitewhashing why it existed.

However, I think it can be vaguely justified to assign it to Prussia. Prussia existed until 1945 not just as any substate of Germany but as by far its largest. Not only that, but Prussian aristocratic traditions remained alive and well especially in the military's higher ranks.

The Doylist explanation would be that they probably planned Prussia for the Industrial Age and Germany for the Atomic Age, and when they scrapped these into a single age, they went with Prussia for the more age-specific and leader-related flavor but had already made the Stuka as well (hence 2 UUs; similar to Russia being a merger of Imperial Russia and the Soviet Union).

Yep, it's just the result of the somewhat awkward age structure in this installment. France suffers the same issues.

 

[jaegermeister]

I mean, I have my own objections to the Stuka because it wasn't just some war tech but because genocidal terror was core to its design and acting as if it can just be an apolitical machine is whitewhashing why it existed.

Sorry but that sounds extremely childish and silly. What do you think the great bombard was like to the Romans? It was probably terrifying for the defenders to get besieged by that. Trebuchets with burning fire wasn't any less terrifying to the primitive defenders when Romans laid siege either. Every weapon can be terrifying, no need to cherrypick due to your political alignment. First machine guns literally shredded the infantry, first tanks were equally brutal as they ran over soldiers. This is what war reduces you to. A10 of the US army or drones did not distribute flowers in Iraq either. All of these can be in the game, and there is no issue with that. I mean, there is nuclear bomb in the game, and no Stuka can be more terrifying than a nuclear blast. The fact that you whine over Stuka while "nuking" your opponent to death, killing millions of its citizens, sounds hilarious, and stupid, not gonna lie.

The problem with Stuka is its wrong historical epoch. It was a thing in ww2 and Prussia was a thing way before that, so it's kinda messed up the way they implemented it.

 

[Canadian Bluebeer]

They shoulda stuck with generic Panzer as the unit.

 

[aelf]

The other problem I have with Stuka is that if you're playing Prussia you'll probably go for Fascism Ideology. Welp, big airplane production unlock bonus only comes in democracy. Why is it that one of the only unique planes goes to a civ that doesn't fit in with the ideology that likely fits with the playstyle?

Why the assumption that Fascism is the most probable ideological choice? If it's for historical reasons, then I don't see the problem with aircraft production bonus being given to democracy. After all, democratic nations have historically produced the most warplanes.

 

[GunsGermsandSteel]

Why the assumption that Fascism is the most probable ideological choice? If it's for historical reasons, then I don't see the problem with aircraft production bonus being given to democracy. After all, democratic nations have historically produced the most warplanes.

For two reasons.
- The civ & leader are geared towards military victory. Fascist is mostly the best ideology for that.
- Germany was fascist for a while, so it falls in place if you're playing from that angle.

Democracy being represented as being the major plane maker is mostly accurate, but in the early years of WW2 (when the Stuka was relevant) was way ahead in production.

 

[aelf]

For two reasons.
- The civ & leader are geared towards military victory. Fascist is mostly the best ideology for that.
- Germany was fascist for a while, so it falls in place if you're playing from that angle.

Democracy being represented as being the major plane maker is mostly accurate, but in the early years of WW2 (when the Stuka was relevant) was way ahead in production.

I don't see the problem. You can opt for Fascism to help with a military victory, and the Stuka would just be a bonus the civ has. Or you can opt for whatever ideology makes sense given the situation with alliances. The bonus to aircraft production wouldn't make much of a difference in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Democracy being represented as being the major plane maker is mostly accurate, but in the early years of WW2 (when the Stuka was relevant) was way ahead in production.

Only in 1939. In that year (all year), Germany produced 8295 combat aircraft, Britain 7940.
In 1940, Germany built 7829 combat aircraft, Britain built 15,049
1941: Germany 9422, Britain 20,094, USA 26,277 - and they weren't even at war yet!
1942: Germany 12,822, Britain 23,672, USA 47,836
1943: Germany 20,599, Britain 26,263, USA 85,898
1944: Germany 35,076, Britain 26,461, USA 96,913

In 1943 and 1944 the USA alone out-produced ALL the fascist/Axis powers: Germany, Italy (1943 only) and Japan by 50% or more

At no time after the war started did Nazi Germany out-produce the 'democracies' in combat aircraft, and given that a percentage of the Allied aircraft were large, heavy 4-engined bombers while Germany by 1944 was producing nothing but 1 and 2-engined aircraft, the difference in engines and airframe weight and complexity was even more pronounced.

BUT this had less to do with any political advantage to the UK and USA, than the fact that the American Production system used simple machine tools that each did one thing only, so people could be trained to use them in days or weeks and then placed on a moving production line so that they did the same simple task hundreds of times a day. That also meant a 2nd or 3rd shift was easily added with minimal training required. Germany used complex machine tools and experienced machinists that could do multiple tasks. This was much more flexible, so they could change production much faster, but they could not expand production easily because training their machinists took years, not to mention manufacturing the complex machines when production was already straining to produce equally complex tanks, aircraft and their engines and machinery.

Even if Germany had had access to the same amounts and types of raw materials as the USA, their inherently less efficient production system would have meant they would have been badly out-produced. Since the Soviet Union also used the "American system", that was not dependent on a particular political system, but the real causes of production efficiency among the various parties in WWII and the Modern Age has never been accurately represented in any game, to my knowledge.