[GS] More Worship Buildings?

Jkchart

Jkchart

Emperor
Joined
Jul 13, 2016
Messages
1,438
Location
Texas
This may just be me, but the lack of proper worship buildings for all 12 base religions kind of annoys me. Here, the religions and worship buildings we have:
-Catholicism: Cathedral (extra slot for religious art)
-Protestantism: Meeting House (+2 production)
-Eastern Orthodoxy (technically a Cathedral could qualify here, but I think most people imagine "Catholic" since that is where the term is most used)
-Islam: Mosque (+1 charge for apostles, missionaries)
-Judaism: Synagogue (total of +5 flat faith instead of everyone else's +3 standard)
-Buddhism: Wat (+2 science) AND Stupa (+1 Amenity)
-Hinduism: (Wats in southeast asia can be Hindu, but Hinduism right now doesn't have a unique "hindu" worship building)
-Taoism: Pagoda (+1 housing)
-Confucianism: (Pagoda could also qualify here, but not strictly confucian)
-Shintoism: (No corresponding structure, though pagodas could be shinto)
-Sikhism: gurdwara (+2 food)
-Zoroastrianism: Dahr-e-Mehr (+1 faith each era since constructed/repaired)

This might be just the completionist in me, but I feel like we could have buildings corresponding to each of the 12 religions in this game. Here, we would probably get 13 because I won't count Wat as the Hindu building. I would add:

-Mandir (Hindu temple in real life): Provides a standard adjacency bonus for each corresponding district type next to it that provides an adjacency bonus (so +1 gold for commercial hub/harbor; +1 production for IZ, etc.); I picked this, borrowing a bit from the Nubian temple, because Hindu temples are known for their adaptations and diversity in construction and beliefs.
-Sobor/Katholikon (Eastern Orthodox cathedral term): +2 culture; icons, choral music, etc.
-Citang (Confucian ancestral temple): +2 loyalty for the city, because Confucianism is a religion based on meritocracy and was very intertwined with the Chinese state
-Honden (Shinto shrine, the most sacred structure): May condemn religious within two tiles of the structure without being at war (I was going to say "in city territory", but that's just OP). I think that reflects the isolationist nature of Shinto Japan during the colonial era well and is a solidly unique bonus.

What do you guys think? Not necessary, but to flesh out the worship building list and religions present.
 
Those are all great ideas! Your Honden concept is easily my favorite out of all of them- ideally, they'd all be that unique, heh. The mandir is also good! As far as other concepts for worship buildings, I'd like to see one with a trade-route focused effect; increasing religious pressure for outgoing / incoming trade routes, most likely, though I'm not sure what structure would be best for that.
 
gallowsCalibrator said:
Those are all great ideas! Your Honden concept is easily my favorite out of all of them- ideally, they'd all be that unique, heh. The mandir is also good! As far as other concepts for worship buildings, I'd like to see one with a trade-route focused effect; increasing religious pressure for outgoing / incoming trade routes, most likely, though I'm not sure what structure would be best for that.
Click to expand...
Thanks! I'd have to figure out what could use that trade-focused effect, and how it would work. Any ideas yourself on what would be appropriate?
 
Jkchart said:
Thanks! I'd have to figure out what could use that trade-focused effect, and how it would work. Any ideas yourself on what would be appropriate?
Click to expand...

A Buddhist building might make the most sense, given how far that religion spread through commerce in real history, though neither the Wat nor the Stupa really reflect that aspect of it. It might be something that's better as a belief?

Changing the Mosque's effect to this is the other thing that comes to mind, considering what I'm suggesting is essentially Arabia's ability from V anyways, heh.
 
gallowsCalibrator said:
A Buddhist building might make the most sense, given how far that religion spread through commerce in real history, though neither the Wat nor the Stupa really reflect that aspect of it. It might be something that's better as a belief?

Changing the Mosque's effect to this is the other thing that comes to mind, considering what I'm suggesting is essentially Arabia's ability from V anyways, heh.
Click to expand...
Definitely trade and Islam go together so I could see why the Mosque would come to mind.

I don't know much about Buddhism's growth through commerce - care to enlighten me?
 
I am not sure I like the Honden ability since Shinto is rather accepting of other religions mostly because it really doesn't have many beliefs that would conflict with other religions and the persecution of Christians in Japan was much more a political move than a religious inspired one.
 
Phrozen said:
I am not sure I like the Honden ability since Shinto is rather accepting of other religions mostly because it really doesn't have many beliefs that would conflict with other religions and the persecution of Christians in Japan was much more a political move than a religious inspired one.
Click to expand...
And that's fair - I was trying to find a unique ability for it. It could be made to be more syncretic in some way, since Shintoism has historically also taken on characteristics from other religions, like Buddhism.
 
If not the Honden, I'd still love to see something with that ability! Something similar and less complex would be a building that increases pressure towards your own cities, but decreases it towards foreign ones; making it better for insular, turtle-y play. That would also be a good belief, too, though. <w<
 
Jkchart said:
Not necessary, but to flesh out the worship building list and religions present.
Click to expand...
I really really want to see a building get +2 culture (I would prefer making the cathedral this and scrapping the art slot but another option would be fine) and something to carry a +4 gold bonus.
We have...
+2 Food
+2 Production
+2 Science
+2 Faith (Synagogue)
+1 Housing (weak! should be +2)
+1 Amenity

Just need culture and gold to round out that list. I guess you could also have something that gave +appeal to nearby tiles.
 
More some options: Basilica, Jinja, Jingū-ji, Candi, Mortuary temple, Derasar/Basadi (common names for Jain Temples), Heathen Hof (former places of worship of Nordic paganism), Ναός (ancient Greek temples) and Nhà thờ họ (places of worship dedicated to Vietnamese ancestors).
 
I think the wat is supposed to be "Hindu," the pagoda is supposed to be "Shinto," and the cathedral is supposed to rep both Catholicism and Orthodoxy.

Now we know this isn't the case, so I support the addition of the mandir and the honden. Not sure how necessary an Orthodox structure is though.

I'm also quite disappointed in the stupa/wat/pagoda setup. The wat really should have been a Cambodian unique. And the stupa/pagoda together are infringing on Burmese design space.
 
In reality Pagodas are associated mostly with Buddhism as well.

The reason we have so many apparently Buddhist worship buildings in the game is because, unlike the rather exclusionary practices of the Abrahamic faiths, East Asian religions take a more syncretic approach. For example, it is not quite true to categorise many Japanese temple complexes as purely Shinto or Buddhist—nearly all of them are an inseparable blend of the two. The same is true of Buddhism's relationship with Confucianism and Taoism in much of Chinese religious history. Thus we see stupas, wats and pagodas across Asia associated with different cultural and religious traditions.

In game design terms, I am a fan more religious worship buildings so long as they have interesting gameplay effects. More unique properties than a +1 to this or that yield are needed, as pretty much every meaningful permutation of faith and the other basic yields are accounted for with what we have already. Also the number of in-game religions is already higher than the number that can be founded in any game except for those played on the most ridiculously large maps. "Base" religions also aren't really an a meaningful concept in-game, just a name and an icon to give historical flavour to what is otherwise entirely down to the player to choose. (I play with the Historical Religions mod anyway!)
 
This is only tangentially related, but I'd agree with what Uberfrog said; I think it'd be better to have more interesting structures than just more of them. For example, rolling the housing, food, and amenity affects into one worship building is something that could be cool; it would be stronger than those individually, of course, and have a bit of a clearer niche (making large cities).
 
Fascinating Discussion: thank you for starting it.

On the one hand, it brings back memories of the Comparative Religion course I took in College, taught by an ex- Presbyterian minister/missionary who had studied both Buddhism and Hinduism at their sources.

On the other hand, I believe Civ IV had specific Worship buildings in each Holy City based on the religion adopted, just for reference. Those were only the Primary Religious Structure, though - you built/got one in the Holy City, and that was all.

Right now, the religion and religious system in Civ VI is a Buffet design - you pick and choose Pantheon, Belief and other elements and the actual name of the religion means nothing in regard to what it does in the game. That means that religion is actually the one component of Civ VI that is flexible enough to 'fit' the in-game situation.

I'd really hate to lose this, but on the other hand, I really like the idea that if my civ is Sikh Religion officially, then I build Gurdwaras, not Stupas, Synagogues or Cathedrals.

Perhaps, then, an answer would be to take the very interesting Effects of the worship buildings both in-game and your suggestions, and divorce them from the buildings. As a founder of Islam, you build Mosques, but the precise Effect of the Mosque, aside from perhaps a 'basic' +X Faith, would depend on what you pick to fit your in-game situation. You may or may not have a far-flung trading empire, so a Trade or Expansionist Islam may not be necessary or desirable fo you in that particular game.

That also would 'open up' the game a bit, in that the variations of the religions could also be included. You might have the chance of founding Sunni, Shia, or even Sufi Islam, each of which builds Mosques, but each of which, in the same game, could choose to have different Effects from the Mosque.

Another thought: some of the effects could be tied to specific 'auxiliary' structures and even change the appearance of the Worship Structure graphically. So, to continue with the Islamic example, you could have a Madrasah attached to the Mosque which provides a Science/Missionary/Apostle boost (religious education) or a Minaret which provides more of a direct Faith Boost. If these 'structures' are unique to separate Worship Buildings (no Minarets on Gurdwaras, for instance) then the Religions and the Religious Buildings would not be entirely 'Free Form': choosing a religion would actually mean something in-game, and not be merely a title you place on your choices of Effects, as now.
 
More worship building ideas
Mandir - +4 Faith, +50% Religious Pressure emitted by this city
Chapel - +4 Faith, +3 Culture
Order - +4 Faith and provides bonus defence CS to this city
Mausoleum - +4 Faith, All military units trained in this city yield Faith on death, and also gain a small chance to spawn a Relic on death.

Definitely an idea I would like to see in the future, some religions are rather poorly represented in the game. Also I would like to be able to always choose a Worship belief in additional to the Follower and Founder/Enhancer beliefs when founding a religion.
 
Sostratus said:
I really really want to see a building get +2 culture (I would prefer making the cathedral this and scrapping the art slot but another option would be fine) and something to carry a +4 gold bonus.
We have...
+2 Food
+2 Production
+2 Science
+2 Faith (Synagogue)
+1 Housing (weak! should be +2)
+1 Amenity

Just need culture and gold to round out that list. I guess you could also have something that gave +appeal to nearby tiles.
Click to expand...
I'm not quite sure about where we could pull the gold from one but I would love that as well. I do enjoy my purchasing power!

Uberfrog said:
In reality Pagodas are associated mostly with Buddhism as well.

The reason we have so many apparently Buddhist worship buildings in the game is because, unlike the rather exclusionary practices of the Abrahamic faiths, East Asian religions take a more syncretic approach. For example, it is not quite true to categorise many Japanese temple complexes as purely Shinto or Buddhist—nearly all of them are an inseparable blend of the two. The same is true of Buddhism's relationship with Confucianism and Taoism in much of Chinese religious history. Thus we see stupas, wats and pagodas across Asia associated with different cultural and religious traditions.

In game design terms, I am a fan more religious worship buildings so long as they have interesting gameplay effects. More unique properties than a +1 to this or that yield are needed, as pretty much every meaningful permutation of faith and the other basic yields are accounted for with what we have already. Also the number of in-game religions is already higher than the number that can be founded in any game except for those played on the most ridiculously large maps. "Base" religions also aren't really an a meaningful concept in-game, just a name and an icon to give historical flavour to what is otherwise entirely down to the player to choose. (I play with the Historical Religions mod anyway!)
Click to expand...

You make a good point on the Buddhist worship buildings that I didn't think of! Thanks for pointing that out.

Definitely part of the reason why I put this post was because we have more potential (I feel) to flesh out that category with some more cool choices.
Boris Gudenuf said:
Fascinating Discussion: thank you for starting it.

On the one hand, it brings back memories of the Comparative Religion course I took in College, taught by an ex- Presbyterian minister/missionary who had studied both Buddhism and Hinduism at their sources.

On the other hand, I believe Civ IV had specific Worship buildings in each Holy City based on the religion adopted, just for reference. Those were only the Primary Religious Structure, though - you built/got one in the Holy City, and that was all.

Right now, the religion and religious system in Civ VI is a Buffet design - you pick and choose Pantheon, Belief and other elements and the actual name of the religion means nothing in regard to what it does in the game. That means that religion is actually the one component of Civ VI that is flexible enough to 'fit' the in-game situation.

I'd really hate to lose this, but on the other hand, I really like the idea that if my civ is Sikh Religion officially, then I build Gurdwaras, not Stupas, Synagogues or Cathedrals.

Perhaps, then, an answer would be to take the very interesting Effects of the worship buildings both in-game and your suggestions, and divorce them from the buildings. As a founder of Islam, you build Mosques, but the precise Effect of the Mosque, aside from perhaps a 'basic' +X Faith, would depend on what you pick to fit your in-game situation. You may or may not have a far-flung trading empire, so a Trade or Expansionist Islam may not be necessary or desirable fo you in that particular game.

That also would 'open up' the game a bit, in that the variations of the religions could also be included. You might have the chance of founding Sunni, Shia, or even Sufi Islam, each of which builds Mosques, but each of which, in the same game, could choose to have different Effects from the Mosque.

Another thought: some of the effects could be tied to specific 'auxiliary' structures and even change the appearance of the Worship Structure graphically. So, to continue with the Islamic example, you could have a Madrasah attached to the Mosque which provides a Science/Missionary/Apostle boost (religious education) or a Minaret which provides more of a direct Faith Boost. If these 'structures' are unique to separate Worship Buildings (no Minarets on Gurdwaras, for instance) then the Religions and the Religious Buildings would not be entirely 'Free Form': choosing a religion would actually mean something in-game, and not be merely a title you place on your choices of Effects, as now.
Click to expand...

You're welcome for the discussion! Always a fan of engaging in good constructive topics for content.

Definitely a fan of this approach of divorcing the building from the effect and making sure everyone always has a worship building (named by each religion) and you just pick the effect. Would be interesting.

monstercat said:
More worship building ideas
Mandir - +4 Faith, +50% Religious Pressure emitted by this city
Chapel - +4 Faith, +3 Culture
Order - +4 Faith and provides bonus defence CS to this city
Mausoleum - +4 Faith, All military units trained in this city yield Faith on death, and also gain a small chance to spawn a Relic on death.

Definitely an idea I would like to see in the future, some religions are rather poorly represented in the game. Also I would like to be able to always choose a Worship belief in additional to the Follower and Founder/Enhancer beliefs when founding a religion.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the ideas! And yes, you should be picking a worship belief as a PART of founding a religion, I agree.
 
Jkchart said:
...And yes, you should be picking a worship belief as a PART of founding a religion, I agree.
Click to expand...

So, let's modify my original 'completely situational' Worship Building thought, in that each Worship Building comes with an Intrinsic Belief - something perhaps historically associated with the type of building - but also allows you to choose from a list of Worship Beliefs that allow you to 'tailor' the Building to what your Civ needs in that particular game.

And among those 'specifically useful' benefits of the Worship Building should be possible benefits to all the 'currencies' in the game now:
Loyalty
Diplomatic Flavor
Culture
Gold
Production
- in addition to possible 'religious' benefits like stronger Missionaries/Apostles/Gurus/Inquistors, faster Religion Spread, religion spread through Trade Routes, extra benefit from Relics or Religious Art, etc.
 
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